4 ms·

You are talking about settlement times of Bitcoin transactions. Yes, those take 10 minutes at best, or roughly around an hour if you want to be very confident

by krupan 3y ago

You are talking about settlement times of Bitcoin transactions. Yes, those take 10 minutes at best, or roughly around an hour if you want to be very confident that the funds have settled. Settlement times on dollars is generally 3 days at best. The lightning network on top of Bitcoin gives you credit card speed transaction times, with settlement still happening on the Bitcoin layer in minutes not days.

bhaak 3y ago
The settlement times of the Dollar is instant if cash is used. Credit cards are fast, too. Even bank transactions are usually faster than 3 days. How do you arrive at „3 days at best“? LN transactions are usually not settled within minutes but when channels are closed. Anything else would negate their whole advantage. Are you thinking of rollups (which Bitcoin doesn’t have yet).
- AnthonyMouse 3y ago
  Traditional ACH transactions take days because they're not even transmitted to the other bank until the end of the day. Then you have to wait for their response. Credit cards are even worse. All you get instantly is whether the card info is valid and has that much credit. But it could be a stolen card or a customer who issues a fraudulent chargeback, and you may not find out about that for a month or more. Meanwhile you've long since delivered the goods.
  - adgjlsfhk1 3y ago
    > But it could be a stolen card Ah yes and bitcoin is better here because it doesn't even try to stop stolen money from being used.
    - krupan 3y ago
      Some people complain Bitcoin isn't anonymous enough, others complain that it doesn't have built-in protection that would absolutely require an invasion of privacy
    - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
      Credit cards don't stop stolen money from being used, all they do is make it a theft from the merchant instead of a theft from the cardholder.
  - majewsky 3y ago
    When I pay something via credit card in an online store, my bank's app gives me a transaction notification within 3-5 seconds. I don't know whether that means that the transaction has been fully settled, but at least it appears to be moving through the system rather quickly. > Traditional ACH transactions take days because they're not even transmitted to the other bank until the end of the day. From what I hear in the US, their banking system is slow to innovate outside of fintech providers. Here in Europe, SEPA Instant Direct Transfer allows ACH transactions to be settled within at most 20 seconds.
    - greenyoda 3y ago
      > From what I hear in the US, their banking system is slow to innovate outside of fintech providers. Actually, the FedNow system, which will provide very fast transactions, is currently being deployed in the US: https://www.frbservices.org/financial-services/fednow/about.html https://www.frbservices.org/financial-services/fednow/about....
    - krupan 3y ago
      Bitcoin wallets can also give you a notification instantly that your transaction is "moving through the system" if that's all you want. The real test of transaction settlement time is how quickly you can withdraw physical dollars from the bank
- krupan 3y ago
  Paper dollar settlement times are fast, if you happen to be in the same physical location as the person you are transacting with. Everything else you mentioned is a transaction not an actual settlement of cash. When you pay with a credit card, for example, no dollars change hands. The credit card company promises to pay the merchant at some point in the future. I've heard it can take 2 weeks for actual dollars to show up in their bank account. Similar with all bank transfers, though usually more like 3 days. And of course, in all those scenarios with banks involved, you don't actually have a physical pile of dollar bills in a vault at the bank. You just have a promise of dollars from the bank. And they have all promised more dollars like that then they actually have.
- krupan 3y ago
  You are correct about lightning transactions. Funds are settled in the Bitcoin layer when the two channel partners close the channel. I think that time can vary depending on the channel partners, but when they do decide to close, then it takes the normal Bitcoin "transaction" (settlement) time.
dukeyukey 3y ago
> Settlement times on dollars is generally 3 days at best. If I do a card payment the merchant knows they'll get the money inside a few seconds. Same if I use cash, or a bank transfer.
- krupan 3y ago
  "knows they'll get the money" is different than actually has the money. And they don't know, there could be a chargeback, the credit card company could decide their business is illegitimate and withhold funds, the federal government could intervene and stop the funds. It is absolutely not the same as cash or bitcoin.
  - dukeyukey 3y ago
    Sure, but the risk is low enough that Aldi is happy to let me take my food out of the store within a second or two of tapping my card. For the _extreme_ vast majority of life, that's plenty.

by krupan 3y ago

bhaak 3y ago

The settlement times of the Dollar is instant if cash is used. Credit cards are fast, too. Even bank transactions are usually faster than 3 days. How do you arrive at „3 days at best“? LN transactions are usually not settled within minutes but when channels are closed. Anything else would negate their whole advantage. Are you thinking of rollups (which Bitcoin doesn’t have yet).

AnthonyMouse 3y ago
Traditional ACH transactions take days because they're not even transmitted to the other bank until the end of the day. Then you have to wait for their response. Credit cards are even worse. All you get instantly is whether the card info is valid and has that much credit. But it could be a stolen card or a customer who issues a fraudulent chargeback, and you may not find out about that for a month or more. Meanwhile you've long since delivered the goods.
- adgjlsfhk1 3y ago
  > But it could be a stolen card Ah yes and bitcoin is better here because it doesn't even try to stop stolen money from being used.
  - krupan 3y ago
    Some people complain Bitcoin isn't anonymous enough, others complain that it doesn't have built-in protection that would absolutely require an invasion of privacy
  - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
    Credit cards don't stop stolen money from being used, all they do is make it a theft from the merchant instead of a theft from the cardholder.
- majewsky 3y ago
  When I pay something via credit card in an online store, my bank's app gives me a transaction notification within 3-5 seconds. I don't know whether that means that the transaction has been fully settled, but at least it appears to be moving through the system rather quickly. > Traditional ACH transactions take days because they're not even transmitted to the other bank until the end of the day. From what I hear in the US, their banking system is slow to innovate outside of fintech providers. Here in Europe, SEPA Instant Direct Transfer allows ACH transactions to be settled within at most 20 seconds.
  - greenyoda 3y ago
    > From what I hear in the US, their banking system is slow to innovate outside of fintech providers. Actually, the FedNow system, which will provide very fast transactions, is currently being deployed in the US: https://www.frbservices.org/financial-services/fednow/about.html https://www.frbservices.org/financial-services/fednow/about....
  - krupan 3y ago
    Bitcoin wallets can also give you a notification instantly that your transaction is "moving through the system" if that's all you want. The real test of transaction settlement time is how quickly you can withdraw physical dollars from the bank
krupan 3y ago
Paper dollar settlement times are fast, if you happen to be in the same physical location as the person you are transacting with. Everything else you mentioned is a transaction not an actual settlement of cash. When you pay with a credit card, for example, no dollars change hands. The credit card company promises to pay the merchant at some point in the future. I've heard it can take 2 weeks for actual dollars to show up in their bank account. Similar with all bank transfers, though usually more like 3 days. And of course, in all those scenarios with banks involved, you don't actually have a physical pile of dollar bills in a vault at the bank. You just have a promise of dollars from the bank. And they have all promised more dollars like that then they actually have.
krupan 3y ago
You are correct about lightning transactions. Funds are settled in the Bitcoin layer when the two channel partners close the channel. I think that time can vary depending on the channel partners, but when they do decide to close, then it takes the normal Bitcoin "transaction" (settlement) time.

dukeyukey 3y ago

> Settlement times on dollars is generally 3 days at best. If I do a card payment the merchant knows they'll get the money inside a few seconds. Same if I use cash, or a bank transfer.

krupan 3y ago
"knows they'll get the money" is different than actually has the money. And they don't know, there could be a chargeback, the credit card company could decide their business is illegitimate and withhold funds, the federal government could intervene and stop the funds. It is absolutely not the same as cash or bitcoin.
- dukeyukey 3y ago
  Sure, but the risk is low enough that Aldi is happy to let me take my food out of the store within a second or two of tapping my card. For the _extreme_ vast majority of life, that's plenty.