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> People on HN are smarter than me, and they all seem to hate bitcoin with passion, but I haven't yet understood why. I think it might be harder to recognize it

by notamy 3y ago

> People on HN are smarter than me, and they all seem to hate bitcoin with passion, but I haven't yet understood why. I think it might be harder to recognize its value when it's part of your implicit cultural background: the dollar is money. Because if BTC is going to be my money for transactions, I actively do not want any of the speculation on its price. It’s not useful for normal transactions if the price can swing as much as 50-100% within a year — some quick searching says BTC started the year around $17k/BTC and is currently around $27k/BTC. BTC currently acts like both a currency and a speculative store of value, and only one of those is really useful if it’s supposed to be the future of money. Otherwise it’s just a more-volatile speculative bet than stocks or bonds or etc that people hope to eventually trade for USD.

krupan 3y ago
You do realize that people heavily speculate on the price of dollars, stocks, real estate, etc., don't you? ;-) In all seriousness, we do understand what you are saying, bitcoin's price relative to the things you want to buy does fluctuate pretty heavily right now because it is still very much in the early adoption phase. But eventually that will even out.
- __loam 3y ago
  I don't think you can call something early adoption if it's been around for 15 years. The iPhone had been around for about the same amount of time and it's a mature platform. The "it's early" argument is really only peddled by people who seem to have an interest in bitcoin's value increasing.
  - krupan 3y ago
    The temptation for sarcasm here is so high...15 whole years huh? This isn't a JavaScript framework we are talking about here. A secure and reliable financial system has very different properties than a consumer product like an iPhone. You do know the Internet got started in the 1960's, right? And didn't really take off until 30 years later?
    - __loam 3y ago
      Bitcoin has had plenty of time to see widespread adoption. Its numerous flaws have become apparent and the ecosystem is so infested with scams and get rich quick bullshit. Good luck!
      - krupan 3y ago
        Saying bitcoin has had plenty of time is laughable. Do you think anyone said that about the internet in 1985 maybe? When you start talking about scams and get rich quick schemes are unfairly grouping all of "crypto" with bitcoin. Bitcoin has been used in some of the schemes, but always with some other "coin" and false promises in conjunction with bitcoin. People that have stuck with plain vanilla bitcoin have not been scammed.
- dukeyukey 3y ago
  > You do realize that people heavily speculate on the price of dollars, stocks, real estate, etc., don't you? ;-) The supermarket doesn't let me use stocks or houses to buy milk and bread, and fortunately I live in a stable enough country that currency fluctuations are fairly minimal. Compared to Bitcoin it may as well not move at all!
AnthonyMouse 3y ago
> It’s not useful for normal transactions if the price can swing as much as 50-100% within a year Why not? If you're not using it for speculation then you wouldn't be holding it for that long. If you're using it as a currency then you might keep $50 worth in your wallet and if you ever receive more than that and not want to spend it immediately you'd exchange it for some traditional investment instead.
- notamy 3y ago
  > If you're using it as a currency then you might keep $50 worth in your wallet Because that $50 in my wallet might be $25 or $100 by the time I need it.
  - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
    What does that matter? If you're only holding $50 then your maximum exposure is $50. And if it turns into $100 then you're not exactly complaining about it.
    - jmye 3y ago
      Seriously? Because if it goes to five when I need to use it for groceries, I’m in a bit of a pickle. That does not happen with the USD/Euro/whatever.
      - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
        > Because if it goes to five when I need to use it for groceries, I’m in a bit of a pickle. Why? You're out $45. That sucks, but since you're not a Bitcoin speculator who holds all their assets in Bitcoin, you only have to open your phone and exchange something for another $50 worth of Bitcoin so you can use it to buy groceries. Maybe you could use the $50 you made that time your $50 in Bitcoin turned into $100 and then you used half of it to invest in something else because you're not a Bitcoin speculator who needs more than $50 worth of Bitcoin at any given time. > That does not happen with the USD/Euro/whatever. When you're measuring dollars in bread rather than Bitcoin in dollars, the consequence is that a loaf of bread costs more dollars. People are complaining about this happening right now.
latchkey 3y ago
It is possible to borrow against BTC (and many other crypto) holdings. This means you don't have to sell. Lend your BTC, earns a bit interest. Borrow your local currency at some rate and within a comfortable liquidation ratio. Spend the local currency on what you want to buy. Earn from your job. Pay back the loan. Keep thing thing you bought. Now you're putting your store of value to work for you and the daily swings in BTC price become less important. No need to go to anyone for permission to do that either. No credit checks. No banks. Anywhere in the world.

by notamy 3y ago

krupan 3y ago

You do realize that people heavily speculate on the price of dollars, stocks, real estate, etc., don't you? ;-) In all seriousness, we do understand what you are saying, bitcoin's price relative to the things you want to buy does fluctuate pretty heavily right now because it is still very much in the early adoption phase. But eventually that will even out.

__loam 3y ago
I don't think you can call something early adoption if it's been around for 15 years. The iPhone had been around for about the same amount of time and it's a mature platform. The "it's early" argument is really only peddled by people who seem to have an interest in bitcoin's value increasing.
- krupan 3y ago
  The temptation for sarcasm here is so high...15 whole years huh? This isn't a JavaScript framework we are talking about here. A secure and reliable financial system has very different properties than a consumer product like an iPhone. You do know the Internet got started in the 1960's, right? And didn't really take off until 30 years later?
  - __loam 3y ago
    Bitcoin has had plenty of time to see widespread adoption. Its numerous flaws have become apparent and the ecosystem is so infested with scams and get rich quick bullshit. Good luck!
    - krupan 3y ago
      Saying bitcoin has had plenty of time is laughable. Do you think anyone said that about the internet in 1985 maybe? When you start talking about scams and get rich quick schemes are unfairly grouping all of "crypto" with bitcoin. Bitcoin has been used in some of the schemes, but always with some other "coin" and false promises in conjunction with bitcoin. People that have stuck with plain vanilla bitcoin have not been scammed.
dukeyukey 3y ago
> You do realize that people heavily speculate on the price of dollars, stocks, real estate, etc., don't you? ;-) The supermarket doesn't let me use stocks or houses to buy milk and bread, and fortunately I live in a stable enough country that currency fluctuations are fairly minimal. Compared to Bitcoin it may as well not move at all!

AnthonyMouse 3y ago

> It’s not useful for normal transactions if the price can swing as much as 50-100% within a year Why not? If you're not using it for speculation then you wouldn't be holding it for that long. If you're using it as a currency then you might keep $50 worth in your wallet and if you ever receive more than that and not want to spend it immediately you'd exchange it for some traditional investment instead.

notamy 3y ago
> If you're using it as a currency then you might keep $50 worth in your wallet Because that $50 in my wallet might be $25 or $100 by the time I need it.
- AnthonyMouse 3y ago
  What does that matter? If you're only holding $50 then your maximum exposure is $50. And if it turns into $100 then you're not exactly complaining about it.
  - jmye 3y ago
    Seriously? Because if it goes to five when I need to use it for groceries, I’m in a bit of a pickle. That does not happen with the USD/Euro/whatever.
    - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
      > Because if it goes to five when I need to use it for groceries, I’m in a bit of a pickle. Why? You're out $45. That sucks, but since you're not a Bitcoin speculator who holds all their assets in Bitcoin, you only have to open your phone and exchange something for another $50 worth of Bitcoin so you can use it to buy groceries. Maybe you could use the $50 you made that time your $50 in Bitcoin turned into $100 and then you used half of it to invest in something else because you're not a Bitcoin speculator who needs more than $50 worth of Bitcoin at any given time. > That does not happen with the USD/Euro/whatever. When you're measuring dollars in bread rather than Bitcoin in dollars, the consequence is that a loaf of bread costs more dollars. People are complaining about this happening right now.

latchkey 3y ago

It is possible to borrow against BTC (and many other crypto) holdings. This means you don't have to sell. Lend your BTC, earns a bit interest. Borrow your local currency at some rate and within a comfortable liquidation ratio. Spend the local currency on what you want to buy. Earn from your job. Pay back the loan. Keep thing thing you bought. Now you're putting your store of value to work for you and the daily swings in BTC price become less important. No need to go to anyone for permission to do that either. No credit checks. No banks. Anywhere in the world.