5 ms·

We aren't going to see browser competition unless and until we fundamentally rethink what the internet should be. The specifications are simply too complex to

We aren't going to see browser competition unless and until we fundamentally rethink what the internet should be. The specifications are simply too complex to foster any meaningful competition. There's too much ground to cover playing catchup and Google has such a large market share that, combined with their data and ad monopoly, allows them to create new specs and features that focus entirely on growing their business model. Web sepcifications should be simple enough that it's pheasible for small teams to actually maintain a quality open source browser with modest funding. We've ended up falling into the same trap as many other big systems, we lost sight of what the goals and limitations for the web were and instead chased convenience and shiny new features above all else.

fidotron 3y ago
The AI wave is doing this, by which I mean it is finally separating the content and presentation of information and allowing the collation and reformatting of substance across multiple entities which today each have their own interfaces. For example, the entire idea that we visit specific websites and manually compare prices when buying things is ridiculous and misses huge parts of the benefits of using computers in the first place.
- cbm-vic-20 3y ago
  That's because the pendulum hasn't swung back in that direction yet. By this time next year, it's likely that many of the popular LLM sites will slip in advertisements, pushing the agenda of whoever trained the models.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
    And the arms race starts all over again.
- flagrant_taco 3y ago
  I think this is actually a modern misunderstanding of the original benefits of computers. Computers were originally designed as a tool, they allowed us to work more efficiently but weren't directly taking over doing the actual work. A spreadsheet doid the calculations for me, but I had to provide both the data and the actual formulas to run. AI, or more accurately machine learning, attempts to take us out of the process. It isn't separating content and presentation, it's separating content and understanding. The algorithm will read in data, compress it, and save only the patterns it learned. By the time the content is presented there is little connection to the original source and what I'm seeing isn't just a separated presentation layer, it's something entirely different like playing a game of telephone.
charcircuit 3y ago
Google's browser engine is open source. You can reuse Google's browser engine meaning that you can focus on the features that differentiate your browser instead of implementing the spec like you suggest.
- dmarcos 3y ago
  Yes. I see chromium as the linux kernel. Piece of fundamental infrastructure that does the the heavy lifting and one can reconfigure, tweak, add features or eventually fork if needed. Never been easier to build an independent browser.
  - flagrant_taco 3y ago
    The open web is dead if the only option is to base every browser on a Google core. How do specs fit into this if every browser is just a UI shell around chrome? Where is the competition driving innovation of the web platform when the only competitive landscape is how pretty you can make your toolbars and bookmarks? We need independent groups of passionate people making sure that the web platform is focused on the best end user experience. We don't always have that today, but that vision is completely dead if the web functionality is decided entirely by an advertising platform.
    - charcircuit 3y ago
      >How do specs fit into this if every browser is just a UI shell around chrome? The browser engine is open source. You can make changes and proposals with your own fork. If you are making a browser for musicians you could try and advance the WebMIDI spec and add new functionality to it and then try to get it standardized. But as a browser developer you don't want to me spending your time implenting specs that other people have already implemented, but rather spending time working on things that improve your browser for your userbase.
      - flagrant_taco 3y ago
        What you're describing is the opposite of the whole point of specifications. The aim wasn't to circle around a single implementation, it was to define feature specifications that would allow multiple vendors to build cross-compatable web browsers. What would be the point of open specifications if there was only a single implementation?
bobajeff 3y ago
I'd like to see an alternative to the Web as well. The truth is that we don't need web browsers as much as we need say Wikipedia, YouTube, Reddit, Amazon, Facebook, GitHub, StackOverflow etc. And we don't need those sites so much as we need the data that is on those services. What is a better source of how to tutorials YouTube? What's a better venue of asking questions than Reddit and StackOverflow? What use is the Internet without those?

fidotron 3y ago

The AI wave is doing this, by which I mean it is finally separating the content and presentation of information and allowing the collation and reformatting of substance across multiple entities which today each have their own interfaces. For example, the entire idea that we visit specific websites and manually compare prices when buying things is ridiculous and misses huge parts of the benefits of using computers in the first place.

cbm-vic-20 3y ago
That's because the pendulum hasn't swung back in that direction yet. By this time next year, it's likely that many of the popular LLM sites will slip in advertisements, pushing the agenda of whoever trained the models.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
  And the arms race starts all over again.
flagrant_taco 3y ago
I think this is actually a modern misunderstanding of the original benefits of computers. Computers were originally designed as a tool, they allowed us to work more efficiently but weren't directly taking over doing the actual work. A spreadsheet doid the calculations for me, but I had to provide both the data and the actual formulas to run. AI, or more accurately machine learning, attempts to take us out of the process. It isn't separating content and presentation, it's separating content and understanding. The algorithm will read in data, compress it, and save only the patterns it learned. By the time the content is presented there is little connection to the original source and what I'm seeing isn't just a separated presentation layer, it's something entirely different like playing a game of telephone.

charcircuit 3y ago

Google's browser engine is open source. You can reuse Google's browser engine meaning that you can focus on the features that differentiate your browser instead of implementing the spec like you suggest.

dmarcos 3y ago
Yes. I see chromium as the linux kernel. Piece of fundamental infrastructure that does the the heavy lifting and one can reconfigure, tweak, add features or eventually fork if needed. Never been easier to build an independent browser.
- flagrant_taco 3y ago
  The open web is dead if the only option is to base every browser on a Google core. How do specs fit into this if every browser is just a UI shell around chrome? Where is the competition driving innovation of the web platform when the only competitive landscape is how pretty you can make your toolbars and bookmarks? We need independent groups of passionate people making sure that the web platform is focused on the best end user experience. We don't always have that today, but that vision is completely dead if the web functionality is decided entirely by an advertising platform.
  - charcircuit 3y ago
    >How do specs fit into this if every browser is just a UI shell around chrome? The browser engine is open source. You can make changes and proposals with your own fork. If you are making a browser for musicians you could try and advance the WebMIDI spec and add new functionality to it and then try to get it standardized. But as a browser developer you don't want to me spending your time implenting specs that other people have already implemented, but rather spending time working on things that improve your browser for your userbase.
    - flagrant_taco 3y ago
      What you're describing is the opposite of the whole point of specifications. The aim wasn't to circle around a single implementation, it was to define feature specifications that would allow multiple vendors to build cross-compatable web browsers. What would be the point of open specifications if there was only a single implementation?

bobajeff 3y ago

I'd like to see an alternative to the Web as well. The truth is that we don't need web browsers as much as we need say Wikipedia, YouTube, Reddit, Amazon, Facebook, GitHub, StackOverflow etc. And we don't need those sites so much as we need the data that is on those services. What is a better source of how to tutorials YouTube? What's a better venue of asking questions than Reddit and StackOverflow? What use is the Internet without those?