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Horrendous, but the nice side effect... the more China, Russia, and other totalitarian states double down on these efforts, the easier it is to argue against th

Horrendous, but the nice side effect... the more China, Russia, and other totalitarian states double down on these efforts, the easier it is to argue against them in the West.

fithisux 3y ago
QRs were an attempt to introduce it. It was simply postponed. Something worse is coming in to the West. They will eliminate cash and now social system is even worse.
FpUser 3y ago
If you feel need to argue you are not winning
- throwaway290 3y ago
  If you are winning without arguing you are not in democracy
  - FpUser 3y ago
    Cut the bull. The political systems of the West claim to be superior in how we treat our own citizens and it is generally true. There is no need to argue about that between ourselves. As for the world where each country is an individual citizen - it is not a democracy. The only rule is: might is right except when some country might feel that bad PR is not good at this particular moment. We are however degrading and I care very much about what is happening here right where I live rather than twisting some other country's hands into "democracy" by way of sanctions, bombing etc.
    - tjrgergw 3y ago
      > There is no need to argue about that between ourselves. I don't know. Speaking strictly objectively: if you look at polls, Putin is extremely popular amongst republican voters.
      - FpUser 3y ago
        The West had dealt with, tolerated and admired many dictators and keeps doing it. It does not mean that we import their way of governing. At least not yet. Russia is a separate subject I think. Putin being bad as he is I think the way situation is turning out could be the biggest US fuck up ever
        throwaway290 3y ago
        The US should roll over and allow the largest country and its bully government to occupy more territory instead of helping UA? But in any case, it's another example, in Russia there was no need to argue about the war because the pro war side (Putin) won by default without even considering what the other side thinks, and it only shows how lost the cause of democracy is there
        tjrgergw 3y ago
        You think that Russia won the Ukraine war?
        throwaway290 3y ago
        No, I write that pro war side in Russia won the argument about whether to go to war using FpUser logic: > If you feel need to argue you are not winning Yeah Putin never felt the need to argue about war. Meaning that logic makes absolutely zero sense unless you're a dictator.
        FpUser 3y ago
        You have some pretty wild imagination. Not my logic at all.
        FpUser 3y ago
        If the US was smarter Russia would not be in UA at all.
omneity 3y ago
There’s a chance something like this ends up happening in the West as well. Could be watered down in some way. It only takes a couple more columns in the database of a credit scoring system to start looking at other factors. These systems being deployed in countries such as China and Russia gives the rest of the world a peek into how it works, and a chance to understand how to best resist totalitarian tendencies. Unfortunately it also gives an opportunity for other governments to learn what works and what doesn’t.
- throwaway10507 3y ago
  Credit scoring systems are private stuff used by private companies, not run by the government and not used to evaluate anything with regards to the government. There's no way an additional column in a credit scoring DB would forbid you from attending a school, moving to a city, etc.
  - omneity 3y ago
    Let me introduce you to SCHUFA[0], a credit scoring system in Germany. It has livelihood implications that make it very hard to live without a good score. Good luck finding a flat with a bad one. It doesn't blur the line between private and public but again, it's a slippery slope. The tracking and scoring infrastructure is there, it just takes will to steer it to another direction. [0]: https://allaboutberlin.com/glossary/Schufa https://allaboutberlin.com/glossary/Schufa
horsh1 3y ago
So what is the real totalitarian difference of Zhima from, say, Equifax or Experian?
- willcipriano 3y ago
  If the executives at Zhima mess up they will be punished harshly?
Moldoteck 3y ago
Meanwhile GB is trying to make e2ee illegal (they stopped for now but were pretty close). Let's not pretend west can't implement social score
- throwaway10507 3y ago
  Let's not forget about EU's ChatControl. They even chose a dystopian name for it and were completely fine with that...
  - bboygravity 3y ago
    We're not completely fine with that, it's just that there's literally nothing we can do to stop it as the EU is not a democracy in any real way.
    - throwaway10507 3y ago
      I meant the EU people, not the citizens (which I am too). Autocorrect added the apostrophe.
    - 0dayz 3y ago
      EU is as democratic as your average EU country. Or have you skipped voting in the EU elections?
      - throwaway10507 3y ago
        How do EU parliament elections help you choose the EU commission members? In your average EU country the elected parliament chooses the government. Not in EU.
        0dayz 3y ago
        It functions exactly the same as an average EU country, you vote for a party, which have a vote on accepting or rejecting the proposal for the current proposed government (which is handpicked by political parties). In the EU it works exactly the same: you vote for a party, which has a vote on accepting or rejecting the proposal for the current proposed commission (where there has to be 1 nominee from each member state and is handpicked by the council of European Union, i.e. your ELECTED state ministers)[1][2]. Can the EU become more democratic? Absolutely, but that will be at the expense of EU member state's sovereignty, which is why it looks like it does right now. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_the_European_Union#Governments_represented_in_the_Council https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_the_European_Union#...
amanaplanacanal 3y ago
I dunno. We have some politicians in the US that appear to be totally enamored with these totalitarian strongmen, and they have very large domestic followings. It wouldn’t surprise me at all to see them try to follow their methods.

Horrendous, but the nice side effect... the more China, Russia, and other totalitarian states double down on these efforts, the easier it is to argue against them in the West.

fithisux 3y ago

QRs were an attempt to introduce it. It was simply postponed. Something worse is coming in to the West. They will eliminate cash and now social system is even worse.

FpUser 3y ago

If you feel need to argue you are not winning

throwaway290 3y ago
If you are winning without arguing you are not in democracy
- FpUser 3y ago
  Cut the bull. The political systems of the West claim to be superior in how we treat our own citizens and it is generally true. There is no need to argue about that between ourselves. As for the world where each country is an individual citizen - it is not a democracy. The only rule is: might is right except when some country might feel that bad PR is not good at this particular moment. We are however degrading and I care very much about what is happening here right where I live rather than twisting some other country's hands into "democracy" by way of sanctions, bombing etc.
  - tjrgergw 3y ago
    > There is no need to argue about that between ourselves. I don't know. Speaking strictly objectively: if you look at polls, Putin is extremely popular amongst republican voters.
    - FpUser 3y ago
      The West had dealt with, tolerated and admired many dictators and keeps doing it. It does not mean that we import their way of governing. At least not yet. Russia is a separate subject I think. Putin being bad as he is I think the way situation is turning out could be the biggest US fuck up ever
      - throwaway290 3y ago
        The US should roll over and allow the largest country and its bully government to occupy more territory instead of helping UA? But in any case, it's another example, in Russia there was no need to argue about the war because the pro war side (Putin) won by default without even considering what the other side thinks, and it only shows how lost the cause of democracy is there
        tjrgergw 3y ago
        You think that Russia won the Ukraine war?
        throwaway290 3y ago
        No, I write that pro war side in Russia won the argument about whether to go to war using FpUser logic: > If you feel need to argue you are not winning Yeah Putin never felt the need to argue about war. Meaning that logic makes absolutely zero sense unless you're a dictator.
        FpUser 3y ago
        You have some pretty wild imagination. Not my logic at all.
        FpUser 3y ago
        If the US was smarter Russia would not be in UA at all.

omneity 3y ago

There’s a chance something like this ends up happening in the West as well. Could be watered down in some way. It only takes a couple more columns in the database of a credit scoring system to start looking at other factors. These systems being deployed in countries such as China and Russia gives the rest of the world a peek into how it works, and a chance to understand how to best resist totalitarian tendencies. Unfortunately it also gives an opportunity for other governments to learn what works and what doesn’t.

throwaway10507 3y ago
Credit scoring systems are private stuff used by private companies, not run by the government and not used to evaluate anything with regards to the government. There's no way an additional column in a credit scoring DB would forbid you from attending a school, moving to a city, etc.
- omneity 3y ago
  Let me introduce you to SCHUFA[0], a credit scoring system in Germany. It has livelihood implications that make it very hard to live without a good score. Good luck finding a flat with a bad one. It doesn't blur the line between private and public but again, it's a slippery slope. The tracking and scoring infrastructure is there, it just takes will to steer it to another direction. [0]: https://allaboutberlin.com/glossary/Schufa https://allaboutberlin.com/glossary/Schufa

horsh1 3y ago

So what is the real totalitarian difference of Zhima from, say, Equifax or Experian?

willcipriano 3y ago
If the executives at Zhima mess up they will be punished harshly?

Moldoteck 3y ago

Meanwhile GB is trying to make e2ee illegal (they stopped for now but were pretty close). Let's not pretend west can't implement social score

throwaway10507 3y ago
Let's not forget about EU's ChatControl. They even chose a dystopian name for it and were completely fine with that...
- bboygravity 3y ago
  We're not completely fine with that, it's just that there's literally nothing we can do to stop it as the EU is not a democracy in any real way.
  - throwaway10507 3y ago
    I meant the EU people, not the citizens (which I am too). Autocorrect added the apostrophe.
  - 0dayz 3y ago
    EU is as democratic as your average EU country. Or have you skipped voting in the EU elections?
    - throwaway10507 3y ago
      How do EU parliament elections help you choose the EU commission members? In your average EU country the elected parliament chooses the government. Not in EU.
      - 0dayz 3y ago
        It functions exactly the same as an average EU country, you vote for a party, which have a vote on accepting or rejecting the proposal for the current proposed government (which is handpicked by political parties). In the EU it works exactly the same: you vote for a party, which has a vote on accepting or rejecting the proposal for the current proposed commission (where there has to be 1 nominee from each member state and is handpicked by the council of European Union, i.e. your ELECTED state ministers)[1][2]. Can the EU become more democratic? Absolutely, but that will be at the expense of EU member state's sovereignty, which is why it looks like it does right now. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_the_European_Union#Governments_represented_in_the_Council https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_the_European_Union#...

amanaplanacanal 3y ago

I dunno. We have some politicians in the US that appear to be totally enamored with these totalitarian strongmen, and they have very large domestic followings. It wouldn’t surprise me at all to see them try to follow their methods.