4 ms·

> "I fear that our export-control laws are not equipped to deal with the challenge of open-source software - whether in advanced semiconductor designs like RISC

> "I fear that our export-control laws are not equipped to deal with the challenge of open-source software - whether in advanced semiconductor designs like RISC-V or in the area of AI - and a dramatic paradigm shift is needed," Warner said in a statement to Reuters. This is clearly an attack on open source. Seems incredibly odd that they use the word "export" to refer to information (that is to say: speech) I really wonder which corporations are lobbying for this stupidity, I'd like to hear some fucking names so I can boycott them

serf 3y ago
the quote sounds like it came from someone who didn't really fully grasp the phrase and the implications of what 'export control' might look like in reference to open-source. it's rich too listening to a senator talking as if the concept of open-source blindsided them given that the attention of Washington has been the very thing the various OSS groups having been working towards since forever.
- sangnoir 3y ago
  > the quote sounds like it came from someone who didn't really fully grasp the phrase and the implications of what 'export control' might look like in reference to open-source. Or didn't study recent history., the export control on strong encryption meant that American contributors would follow the letter of the law, and others outside of the US - eg Canadians for BouncyCastle[1] - would freely provide the missing illegal-to-export functionality to the rest of the world. 1. If memory serves, an American cryptographer once crossed into Canada to perform a 'forbidden commit'. The functionality technically wasn't an export of the US
sneak 3y ago
They’ve done this before, famously with encryption software. prz and djb did great work to stop it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernstein_v._United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernstein_v._United_States > After four years and one regulatory change, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that software source code was speech protected by the First Amendment and that the government's regulations preventing its publication were unconstitutional. FWIW, I imagine in 4-5 years this “battle” will pretty much already be decided wrt chipmaking in China.
- samtheprogram 3y ago
  > FWIW, I imagine in 4-5 years this “battle” will pretty much already be decided wrt chipmaking in China. If I'm understanding you correctly... It's not that easy for China (or the US) to spin up their own fabs, particularly ones that compete to those in Taiwan. Even with some expertise and fat pockets, you might not get the same results. It's a lot of trial and error and improving yield for small processes to the point where it's economical. On top of that, the cutting edge is already developing in Taiwan (i.e. next gen fabs). That's why Taiwan is such a coveted area for the PRC (and the US) -- besides the traditional political issues regarding their exodus from mainland China.
  - igravious 3y ago
    “China is expected to outnumber all other regions in new chip manufacturing facilities, with 20 supporting mature technologies planned.” https://www.semi.org/en/news-media-press-releases/semi-press-releases/global-chip-industry-projected-to-invest-more-than-%24500-billion-in-new-factories-by-2024-semi-reports https://www.semi.org/en/news-media-press-releases/semi-press... Why is it not easy for China to spin up their own fabs? They have a strategic plan / industrial policy[1]. They have the industrial base[2][3]. They have pumping out engineering graduates[3]. † [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Made_in_China_2025 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Made_in_China_2025 [2] “From 1900 to 1999, the US produced 4.2 billion tonnes of cement. It consumed 4.4 billion tonnes. China produced 2.4 billion tonnes in 2020, and 2.5 billion tonnes in 2021. This means it produced 4.9 billion tonnes in these two years.” (China produced more cement in two years than the US did in the whole 20th century) https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/china-us-cement https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/china-us-cement [3] “China is by far the world’s largest silicon producer, with a production volume estimated at six million metric tons in 2022. The total production volume of silicon worldwide was an estimated 8.8 million metric tons that year.” https://www.statista.com/statistics/1260896/china-silicon-production/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1260896/china-silicon-pr... [4] “China awarded 1.38 million engineering bachelor’s degrees in 2020. The comparable American number is 197,000 (144,000 in engineering and 54,000 in computer science), or just one-seventh of China’s total.” https://asiatimes.com/2022/07/a-tale-of-two-talents/ https://asiatimes.com/2022/07/a-tale-of-two-talents/ † You know the way we have this mental model in our heads for the size of the US economy post WWII versus the rest of the world?, we're going to have to update our mental model of the size of China's economy today versus the rest of the world.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

serf 3y ago

the quote sounds like it came from someone who didn't really fully grasp the phrase and the implications of what 'export control' might look like in reference to open-source. it's rich too listening to a senator talking as if the concept of open-source blindsided them given that the attention of Washington has been the very thing the various OSS groups having been working towards since forever.

sangnoir 3y ago
> the quote sounds like it came from someone who didn't really fully grasp the phrase and the implications of what 'export control' might look like in reference to open-source. Or didn't study recent history., the export control on strong encryption meant that American contributors would follow the letter of the law, and others outside of the US - eg Canadians for BouncyCastle[1] - would freely provide the missing illegal-to-export functionality to the rest of the world. 1. If memory serves, an American cryptographer once crossed into Canada to perform a 'forbidden commit'. The functionality technically wasn't an export of the US

sneak 3y ago

They’ve done this before, famously with encryption software. prz and djb did great work to stop it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernstein_v._United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernstein_v._United_States > After four years and one regulatory change, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that software source code was speech protected by the First Amendment and that the government's regulations preventing its publication were unconstitutional. FWIW, I imagine in 4-5 years this “battle” will pretty much already be decided wrt chipmaking in China.

samtheprogram 3y ago
> FWIW, I imagine in 4-5 years this “battle” will pretty much already be decided wrt chipmaking in China. If I'm understanding you correctly... It's not that easy for China (or the US) to spin up their own fabs, particularly ones that compete to those in Taiwan. Even with some expertise and fat pockets, you might not get the same results. It's a lot of trial and error and improving yield for small processes to the point where it's economical. On top of that, the cutting edge is already developing in Taiwan (i.e. next gen fabs). That's why Taiwan is such a coveted area for the PRC (and the US) -- besides the traditional political issues regarding their exodus from mainland China.
- igravious 3y ago
  “China is expected to outnumber all other regions in new chip manufacturing facilities, with 20 supporting mature technologies planned.” https://www.semi.org/en/news-media-press-releases/semi-press-releases/global-chip-industry-projected-to-invest-more-than-%24500-billion-in-new-factories-by-2024-semi-reports https://www.semi.org/en/news-media-press-releases/semi-press... Why is it not easy for China to spin up their own fabs? They have a strategic plan / industrial policy[1]. They have the industrial base[2][3]. They have pumping out engineering graduates[3]. † [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Made_in_China_2025 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Made_in_China_2025 [2] “From 1900 to 1999, the US produced 4.2 billion tonnes of cement. It consumed 4.4 billion tonnes. China produced 2.4 billion tonnes in 2020, and 2.5 billion tonnes in 2021. This means it produced 4.9 billion tonnes in these two years.” (China produced more cement in two years than the US did in the whole 20th century) https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/china-us-cement https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/china-us-cement [3] “China is by far the world’s largest silicon producer, with a production volume estimated at six million metric tons in 2022. The total production volume of silicon worldwide was an estimated 8.8 million metric tons that year.” https://www.statista.com/statistics/1260896/china-silicon-production/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1260896/china-silicon-pr... [4] “China awarded 1.38 million engineering bachelor’s degrees in 2020. The comparable American number is 197,000 (144,000 in engineering and 54,000 in computer science), or just one-seventh of China’s total.” https://asiatimes.com/2022/07/a-tale-of-two-talents/ https://asiatimes.com/2022/07/a-tale-of-two-talents/ † You know the way we have this mental model in our heads for the size of the US economy post WWII versus the rest of the world?, we're going to have to update our mental model of the size of China's economy today versus the rest of the world.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]