6 ms·

The Russian State Social University Is Developing a Social Rating System "We"

43 points by valeg 3y ago

kbelder 3y ago
Horrendous, but the nice side effect... the more China, Russia, and other totalitarian states double down on these efforts, the easier it is to argue against them in the West.
- fithisux 3y ago
  QRs were an attempt to introduce it. It was simply postponed. Something worse is coming in to the West. They will eliminate cash and now social system is even worse.
- FpUser 3y ago
  If you feel need to argue you are not winning
  - throwaway290 3y ago
    If you are winning without arguing you are not in democracy
    - FpUser 3y ago
      Cut the bull. The political systems of the West claim to be superior in how we treat our own citizens and it is generally true. There is no need to argue about that between ourselves. As for the world where each country is an individual citizen - it is not a democracy. The only rule is: might is right except when some country might feel that bad PR is not good at this particular moment. We are however degrading and I care very much about what is happening here right where I live rather than twisting some other country's hands into "democracy" by way of sanctions, bombing etc.
      - tjrgergw 3y ago
        > There is no need to argue about that between ourselves. I don't know. Speaking strictly objectively: if you look at polls, Putin is extremely popular amongst republican voters.
        FpUser 3y ago
        The West had dealt with, tolerated and admired many dictators and keeps doing it. It does not mean that we import their way of governing. At least not yet. Russia is a separate subject I think. Putin being bad as he is I think the way situation is turning out could be the biggest US fuck up ever
        throwaway290 3y ago
        The US should roll over and allow the largest country and its bully government to occupy more territory instead of helping UA? But in any case, it's another example, in Russia there was no need to argue about the war because the pro war side (Putin) won by default without even considering what the other side thinks, and it only shows how lost the cause of democracy is there
        tjrgergw 3y ago
        You think that Russia won the Ukraine war?
        throwaway290 3y ago
        No, I write that pro war side in Russia won the argument about whether to go to war using FpUser logic: > If you feel need to argue you are not winning Yeah Putin never felt the need to argue about war. Meaning that logic makes absolutely zero sense unless you're a dictator.
        FpUser 3y ago
        You have some pretty wild imagination. Not my logic at all.
- omneity 3y ago
  There’s a chance something like this ends up happening in the West as well. Could be watered down in some way. It only takes a couple more columns in the database of a credit scoring system to start looking at other factors. These systems being deployed in countries such as China and Russia gives the rest of the world a peek into how it works, and a chance to understand how to best resist totalitarian tendencies. Unfortunately it also gives an opportunity for other governments to learn what works and what doesn’t.
  - throwaway10507 3y ago
    Credit scoring systems are private stuff used by private companies, not run by the government and not used to evaluate anything with regards to the government. There's no way an additional column in a credit scoring DB would forbid you from attending a school, moving to a city, etc.
    - omneity 3y ago
      Let me introduce you to SCHUFA[0], a credit scoring system in Germany. It has livelihood implications that make it very hard to live without a good score. Good luck finding a flat with a bad one. It doesn't blur the line between private and public but again, it's a slippery slope. The tracking and scoring infrastructure is there, it just takes will to steer it to another direction. [0]: https://allaboutberlin.com/glossary/Schufa https://allaboutberlin.com/glossary/Schufa
- horsh1 3y ago
  So what is the real totalitarian difference of Zhima from, say, Equifax or Experian?
  - willcipriano 3y ago
    If the executives at Zhima mess up they will be punished harshly?
- Moldoteck 3y ago
  Meanwhile GB is trying to make e2ee illegal (they stopped for now but were pretty close). Let's not pretend west can't implement social score
  - throwaway10507 3y ago
    Let's not forget about EU's ChatControl. They even chose a dystopian name for it and were completely fine with that...
    - bboygravity 3y ago
      We're not completely fine with that, it's just that there's literally nothing we can do to stop it as the EU is not a democracy in any real way.
      - throwaway10507 3y ago
        I meant the EU people, not the citizens (which I am too). Autocorrect added the apostrophe.
      - 0dayz 3y ago
        EU is as democratic as your average EU country. Or have you skipped voting in the EU elections?
        throwaway10507 3y ago
        How do EU parliament elections help you choose the EU commission members? In your average EU country the elected parliament chooses the government. Not in EU.
        0dayz 3y ago
        It functions exactly the same as an average EU country, you vote for a party, which have a vote on accepting or rejecting the proposal for the current proposed government (which is handpicked by political parties). In the EU it works exactly the same: you vote for a party, which has a vote on accepting or rejecting the proposal for the current proposed commission (where there has to be 1 nominee from each member state and is handpicked by the council of European Union, i.e. your ELECTED state ministers)[1][2]. Can the EU become more democratic? Absolutely, but that will be at the expense of EU member state's sovereignty, which is why it looks like it does right now. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_the_European_Union#Governments_represented_in_the_Council https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_the_European_Union#...
- amanaplanacanal 3y ago
  I dunno. We have some politicians in the US that appear to be totally enamored with these totalitarian strongmen, and they have very large domestic followings. It wouldn’t surprise me at all to see them try to follow their methods.
defrost 3y ago
Д-503, a spacecraft engineer, rated 47-29. The first figure reflecting social status, and the second – social level, reflecting “merits” and “prospects”, respectively. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_(novel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_(novel) (1921)
- dejj 3y ago
  Peter Arbeitsloser, a machine therapist, rated 10. Levels were initially added as a “gimmick” by the programmers, and quickly came to dominate every aspect of life. His last name was assigned from his father’s job title at the time of conception. https://qualityland.de/ql1/ https://qualityland.de/ql1/
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - c0balt 3y ago
    ^ For non german speakers, Arbeitsloser ~ jobless person, i.e., someone not employed or working. Edit: The book is awesome though. Definitely recommended. Marc Uwe Kling also has a great series of works around a kanguru.
    - te0006 3y ago
      To do it some justice: a talking, very opinionated, intellectual, anti-capitalist, and overall absolutely hilarious kangaroo, which of course is some form of alter ego of the author. There is an english edition of a selection of Kangaroo stories here: https://marcuwekling.reimkultur-shop.de/marc-uwe-kling-the-kangaroo-chronicles-best-of-e-book-6400279.html https://marcuwekling.reimkultur-shop.de/marc-uwe-kling-the-k..., also one of QualityLand here: https://www.orionbooks.co.uk/titles/marc-uwe-kling/qualityland/9781409191162/ https://www.orionbooks.co.uk/titles/marc-uwe-kling/qualityla...
fithisux 3y ago
[flagged]
ddmma 3y ago
“We” system will be useful not only for banks, but also for governors, for whom it will be able to classify citizens according to their usefulness to the state. When you reach the obsolete status then what? Also this applies to public authorities? https://youtu.be/zGZqnc6_5To?si=BsHSPxDB0-NYp-Rs https://youtu.be/zGZqnc6_5To?si=BsHSPxDB0-NYp-Rs
- petre 3y ago
  > When you reach the obsolete status then what? You either go to re-education camp or are able to obtain a passport, depending on many factors. However, if you do obtain a passport, then the regime's days are numbered.
  - pvaldes 3y ago
    This feels just like just another AI history, but I will imagine that is a real history > When you reach the obsolete status then what? ... Then, cannon meat. The same as currently. Prison holidays program to visit Syria Russia is actively looking for more soldiers and this system would be very useful in a few years to order the next meat wave (and most of all to justify it to the public eye). Then the system will meet systemic corruption making it useless. The game will be ringed, and the mobster will buy extra points of honesty for his rapist son, while the teacher and the peasant, unable to pay in dollars, will be sent to a job of testing landmine triggers by a special selector robot. Russian people are being pressure-cooked very slowly but surely until they realize, too late, that they will not be spared. Not even with their decent, but not exceptional social score. The new national animal of Russia is not the bear anymore, is the boiled frog In any case, the history seems (very) fake
    - petre 3y ago
      What makes you think that the game is not currently riged? The country is led by a Chekist junta. They throw economic migrans from the former USSR states and other non-ethnic Russians in prison for whatever motives, then they send them to Ukraine to be "pardoned". This social score is just an attempt to copy China and to rig the game even more. Except Russia is not China, a country of 1.4bn people and 10x Russia's GDP.
kgeist 3y ago
I suspect the article was written by AI: >Of course, the platform represents an interesting experiment that can lead to new approaches to assessing the social status and standard of living of citizens. However, it is necessary to ensure transparency, data protection and a balance between individual rights and state interests
- pk-protect-ai 3y ago
  These rumors are also circulating in Russia: https://habr-com.translate.goog/ru/news/765866/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp&_x_tr_hist=true https://habr-com.translate.goog/ru/news/765866/?_x_tr_sl=aut... Here's what AI can do with this article: https://www.phind.com/search?cache=o2wo1bog0dfjwj49vwhhgqgv https://www.phind.com/search?cache=o2wo1bog0dfjwj49vwhhgqgv However, I wouldn't be surprised if this development is true, given that Russia is currently a totalitarian state. It is one of three countries that kills North Koreans who flee their country (along with North Korea itself and China), kills Ukrainians and its own citizens. Russia enforces totalitarian laws against any spoken or written words that criticize the government.
  - kgeist 3y ago
    >It is one of three countries that kills North Koreans who flee their country Source? I only heard about sending them back.
    - sasaf5 3y ago
      Which amounts too...
pharmakom 3y ago
I hope whoever came up with the name was in on the joke.
robertlutece 3y ago
"Finnerty, Edward Francis Finnerty, Ph.D., one-time EC-002." "There's a collector's item - a double-o-two number!" said Lasher. "I've known several single-o men, but never a double-o. I guess you're the highest classification I ever had friendly words with. If the Pope set up shop in this country, he'd be only one notch up - in the R-numbers of course. He'd be an R-001. I heard somewhere that the number was being held for him, over the objections of Episcopal bishops who want R-001 themselves. Delicate business. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_Piano_(novel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_Piano_(novel)
FFP999 3y ago
[dead]
more_corn 3y ago
I think I read this book

43 points by valeg 3y ago

Horrendous, but the nice side effect... the more China, Russia, and other totalitarian states double down on these efforts, the easier it is to argue against them in the West.

fithisux 3y ago
QRs were an attempt to introduce it. It was simply postponed. Something worse is coming in to the West. They will eliminate cash and now social system is even worse.
FpUser 3y ago
If you feel need to argue you are not winning
- throwaway290 3y ago
  If you are winning without arguing you are not in democracy
  - FpUser 3y ago
    Cut the bull. The political systems of the West claim to be superior in how we treat our own citizens and it is generally true. There is no need to argue about that between ourselves. As for the world where each country is an individual citizen - it is not a democracy. The only rule is: might is right except when some country might feel that bad PR is not good at this particular moment. We are however degrading and I care very much about what is happening here right where I live rather than twisting some other country's hands into "democracy" by way of sanctions, bombing etc.
    - tjrgergw 3y ago
      > There is no need to argue about that between ourselves. I don't know. Speaking strictly objectively: if you look at polls, Putin is extremely popular amongst republican voters.
      - FpUser 3y ago
        The West had dealt with, tolerated and admired many dictators and keeps doing it. It does not mean that we import their way of governing. At least not yet. Russia is a separate subject I think. Putin being bad as he is I think the way situation is turning out could be the biggest US fuck up ever
        throwaway290 3y ago
        The US should roll over and allow the largest country and its bully government to occupy more territory instead of helping UA? But in any case, it's another example, in Russia there was no need to argue about the war because the pro war side (Putin) won by default without even considering what the other side thinks, and it only shows how lost the cause of democracy is there
        tjrgergw 3y ago
        You think that Russia won the Ukraine war?
        throwaway290 3y ago
        No, I write that pro war side in Russia won the argument about whether to go to war using FpUser logic: > If you feel need to argue you are not winning Yeah Putin never felt the need to argue about war. Meaning that logic makes absolutely zero sense unless you're a dictator.
        FpUser 3y ago
        You have some pretty wild imagination. Not my logic at all.
omneity 3y ago
There’s a chance something like this ends up happening in the West as well. Could be watered down in some way. It only takes a couple more columns in the database of a credit scoring system to start looking at other factors. These systems being deployed in countries such as China and Russia gives the rest of the world a peek into how it works, and a chance to understand how to best resist totalitarian tendencies. Unfortunately it also gives an opportunity for other governments to learn what works and what doesn’t.
- throwaway10507 3y ago
  Credit scoring systems are private stuff used by private companies, not run by the government and not used to evaluate anything with regards to the government. There's no way an additional column in a credit scoring DB would forbid you from attending a school, moving to a city, etc.
  - omneity 3y ago
    Let me introduce you to SCHUFA[0], a credit scoring system in Germany. It has livelihood implications that make it very hard to live without a good score. Good luck finding a flat with a bad one. It doesn't blur the line between private and public but again, it's a slippery slope. The tracking and scoring infrastructure is there, it just takes will to steer it to another direction. [0]: https://allaboutberlin.com/glossary/Schufa https://allaboutberlin.com/glossary/Schufa
horsh1 3y ago
So what is the real totalitarian difference of Zhima from, say, Equifax or Experian?
- willcipriano 3y ago
  If the executives at Zhima mess up they will be punished harshly?
Moldoteck 3y ago
Meanwhile GB is trying to make e2ee illegal (they stopped for now but were pretty close). Let's not pretend west can't implement social score
- throwaway10507 3y ago
  Let's not forget about EU's ChatControl. They even chose a dystopian name for it and were completely fine with that...
  - bboygravity 3y ago
    We're not completely fine with that, it's just that there's literally nothing we can do to stop it as the EU is not a democracy in any real way.
    - throwaway10507 3y ago
      I meant the EU people, not the citizens (which I am too). Autocorrect added the apostrophe.
    - 0dayz 3y ago
      EU is as democratic as your average EU country. Or have you skipped voting in the EU elections?
      - throwaway10507 3y ago
        How do EU parliament elections help you choose the EU commission members? In your average EU country the elected parliament chooses the government. Not in EU.
        0dayz 3y ago
        It functions exactly the same as an average EU country, you vote for a party, which have a vote on accepting or rejecting the proposal for the current proposed government (which is handpicked by political parties). In the EU it works exactly the same: you vote for a party, which has a vote on accepting or rejecting the proposal for the current proposed commission (where there has to be 1 nominee from each member state and is handpicked by the council of European Union, i.e. your ELECTED state ministers)[1][2]. Can the EU become more democratic? Absolutely, but that will be at the expense of EU member state's sovereignty, which is why it looks like it does right now. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_the_European_Union#Governments_represented_in_the_Council https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_the_European_Union#...
amanaplanacanal 3y ago
I dunno. We have some politicians in the US that appear to be totally enamored with these totalitarian strongmen, and they have very large domestic followings. It wouldn’t surprise me at all to see them try to follow their methods.

defrost 3y ago

Д-503, a spacecraft engineer, rated 47-29. The first figure reflecting social status, and the second – social level, reflecting “merits” and “prospects”, respectively. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_(novel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_(novel) (1921)

dejj 3y ago
Peter Arbeitsloser, a machine therapist, rated 10. Levels were initially added as a “gimmick” by the programmers, and quickly came to dominate every aspect of life. His last name was assigned from his father’s job title at the time of conception. https://qualityland.de/ql1/ https://qualityland.de/ql1/
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- c0balt 3y ago
  ^ For non german speakers, Arbeitsloser ~ jobless person, i.e., someone not employed or working. Edit: The book is awesome though. Definitely recommended. Marc Uwe Kling also has a great series of works around a kanguru.
  - te0006 3y ago
    To do it some justice: a talking, very opinionated, intellectual, anti-capitalist, and overall absolutely hilarious kangaroo, which of course is some form of alter ego of the author. There is an english edition of a selection of Kangaroo stories here: https://marcuwekling.reimkultur-shop.de/marc-uwe-kling-the-kangaroo-chronicles-best-of-e-book-6400279.html https://marcuwekling.reimkultur-shop.de/marc-uwe-kling-the-k..., also one of QualityLand here: https://www.orionbooks.co.uk/titles/marc-uwe-kling/qualityland/9781409191162/ https://www.orionbooks.co.uk/titles/marc-uwe-kling/qualityla...

fithisux 3y ago

[flagged]

ddmma 3y ago

“We” system will be useful not only for banks, but also for governors, for whom it will be able to classify citizens according to their usefulness to the state. When you reach the obsolete status then what? Also this applies to public authorities? https://youtu.be/zGZqnc6_5To?si=BsHSPxDB0-NYp-Rs https://youtu.be/zGZqnc6_5To?si=BsHSPxDB0-NYp-Rs

petre 3y ago
> When you reach the obsolete status then what? You either go to re-education camp or are able to obtain a passport, depending on many factors. However, if you do obtain a passport, then the regime's days are numbered.
- pvaldes 3y ago
  This feels just like just another AI history, but I will imagine that is a real history > When you reach the obsolete status then what? ... Then, cannon meat. The same as currently. Prison holidays program to visit Syria Russia is actively looking for more soldiers and this system would be very useful in a few years to order the next meat wave (and most of all to justify it to the public eye). Then the system will meet systemic corruption making it useless. The game will be ringed, and the mobster will buy extra points of honesty for his rapist son, while the teacher and the peasant, unable to pay in dollars, will be sent to a job of testing landmine triggers by a special selector robot. Russian people are being pressure-cooked very slowly but surely until they realize, too late, that they will not be spared. Not even with their decent, but not exceptional social score. The new national animal of Russia is not the bear anymore, is the boiled frog In any case, the history seems (very) fake
  - petre 3y ago
    What makes you think that the game is not currently riged? The country is led by a Chekist junta. They throw economic migrans from the former USSR states and other non-ethnic Russians in prison for whatever motives, then they send them to Ukraine to be "pardoned". This social score is just an attempt to copy China and to rig the game even more. Except Russia is not China, a country of 1.4bn people and 10x Russia's GDP.

kgeist 3y ago

I suspect the article was written by AI: >Of course, the platform represents an interesting experiment that can lead to new approaches to assessing the social status and standard of living of citizens. However, it is necessary to ensure transparency, data protection and a balance between individual rights and state interests

pk-protect-ai 3y ago
These rumors are also circulating in Russia: https://habr-com.translate.goog/ru/news/765866/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp&_x_tr_hist=true https://habr-com.translate.goog/ru/news/765866/?_x_tr_sl=aut... Here's what AI can do with this article: https://www.phind.com/search?cache=o2wo1bog0dfjwj49vwhhgqgv https://www.phind.com/search?cache=o2wo1bog0dfjwj49vwhhgqgv However, I wouldn't be surprised if this development is true, given that Russia is currently a totalitarian state. It is one of three countries that kills North Koreans who flee their country (along with North Korea itself and China), kills Ukrainians and its own citizens. Russia enforces totalitarian laws against any spoken or written words that criticize the government.
- kgeist 3y ago
  >It is one of three countries that kills North Koreans who flee their country Source? I only heard about sending them back.
  - sasaf5 3y ago
    Which amounts too...

pharmakom 3y ago

I hope whoever came up with the name was in on the joke.

robertlutece 3y ago

"Finnerty, Edward Francis Finnerty, Ph.D., one-time EC-002." "There's a collector's item - a double-o-two number!" said Lasher. "I've known several single-o men, but never a double-o. I guess you're the highest classification I ever had friendly words with. If the Pope set up shop in this country, he'd be only one notch up - in the R-numbers of course. He'd be an R-001. I heard somewhere that the number was being held for him, over the objections of Episcopal bishops who want R-001 themselves. Delicate business. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_Piano_(novel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_Piano_(novel)

FFP999 3y ago

[dead]

more_corn 3y ago

I think I read this book