4 ms·

I don't feel as if there was so much of a dominant paradigm back in 1987, when RISC OS first came out, at least not outside of the US? I recall that period mor

by pcc 3y ago

I don't feel as if there was so much of a dominant paradigm back in 1987, when RISC OS first came out, at least not outside of the US? I recall that period more as a melting pot of ideas and approaches from lots of manufacturers independently trying to figure out what paradigms might stick. There were many disparate approaches to text-based OSs: MS-DOS, Acorn MOS on the BBC which is the predecessor of the shell found in RISC OS, Sinclair, Atari, etc. Likewise, separate approaches to GUIs: Mac, Gem, RISC OS / Arthur, the Amiga, etc. Windows 2. Teams from Acorn, Research Machines, Sinclair etc all basically did things in their own way. While the Macintosh UI paradigm was considered dominant in some market segments at the time (eg DTP), there wasn't yet a universal expectation around how GUIs would work. That started happening more after Windows 3 came out, in 1990 iirc. Certainly there must have been cross-pollination of ideas between these different groups. Pretty sure these Docks and Task Bars with icons, that we all have at the bottom of our screens now, was an idea first seen in RISC OS.

kristopolous 3y ago
> Pretty sure these Docks and Task Bars with icons, that we all have at the bottom of our screens now, was an idea first seen in RISC OS No way. Windows 1.0 had it (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Microsoft_Windows_1.0_screenshot.png https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Microsoft_Windows_1.0_s...) . The RISC OS workflow of click on bottom to create new instance paradigm is probably from Xerox Star 8010 although might be earlier https://interface-experience.org/site/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/IE-Star-3.jpg https://interface-experience.org/site/wp-content/uploads/201... The GUI unification theory is fine but we're talking RISC OS 2023 being still like this. All the weird quirks are still there. Other systems have merged. Even ArcaOS, the successor to OS/2 has dropped all those strange tab systems that OS/2 Warp 3 took from PenpointOS. It's fairly hard to find something that's notably different that's ostensibly still being worked on.
- fanf2 3y ago
  Those Windows 1 icons are on the desktop, not a task bar.
  - kristopolous 3y ago
    http://toastytech.com/guis/win1012.html http://toastytech.com/guis/win1012.html You can call it whatever you want but it's an inviolable horizontal container on the bottom of the screen reserved for iconified applications and storage controls upon which applications can not occlude. Maybe calling it an iconify dock is more appropriate. Microsoft called it "Icon Area": https://archive.org/details/microsoft-windows-1.03-hp-150-3.5-ssdd/Microsoft%20Windows%201.03%20%5BHP%20150%5D%20%283.5-SSDD%29/Documentation/MicrosoftWindowsFor_150AndVectra_5958-7637_450pages_Sep86/page/n51/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/microsoft-windows-1.03-hp-150-3.... Windows 1.0 doesn't really have a desktop metaphor in the modern sense as in some rectangle with free floating icons which represent arbitrary files or folders. Windows 2.0 made the icon space the entire background which can be occluded by applications and 3.0 introduced the merging of the metaphors into a "desktop" that we're all familiar with. Stating they're all equivalent I think is a bit of stretch.
    - duskwuff 3y ago
      > You can call it whatever you want but it's an inviolable horizontal container on the bottom of the screen reserved for iconified applications and storage controls upon which applications can not occlude. But it wasn't a concept that Microsoft was particularly wedded to. It disappeared in Windows 3.x.
      - kristopolous 3y ago
        Windows itself wasn't a concept microsoft was wedded to until windows 3.0 ... after 1.0 it was mostly axed. It took a giant internal effort to get windows 2.0 resourced for development and release and then there was a bunch of politics that started with TopView (which had many clones such as quarterdeck desqview) and ended with OS/2 1.3 that got 3.0 out the door. MS was probably fully committed to OS/2 up until about 1989/90" IBM was still pushing its MCA based PS/2 machines at the time and the writing was on the wall when the gang of nine did EISA as a response instead of forking over a license fee. I don't know what this has to do with anything. Claiming that RISC OS invented the dock or was the first to do it is bunk. I'm a huge fan of innovation and like RISC OS but I'm a bigger fan of accurate history. --- * accounts differ on this. Some, like Ferguson in the Computer Wars depict as a bad faith sabotage, while others such as in hard drive, brush that off as a conspiracy theory while others such as in barbarians led by Bill Gates say there were fundamental opinion conflicts by important primadonna programmers. I think it's likely all the above, there's enough people involved and the theories don't necessarily conflict
esafak 3y ago
There was more diversity in paradigms and technologies before Wintel stamped it out. In particular, non-American companies were more prominent. I can't speak for Intel but I feel that Microsoft held the industry back with their remarkable commitment to shoddiness and tastelessness. I feel a tinge of sadness reflecting on this fact when I walk through the Computer History Museum in Silicon Valley.
- kristopolous 3y ago
  Go to Living Computers in Seattle when they figure out how to reopen. CHM is a shadow of Living Computers. There's things like Xerox Altos and Apple 1s there that you can use. Sit at and actually do things with. They sadly do not have a Pixar image computer which is a remarkably obscure little thing I've wanted to see working for a while. I've seen 2 of them but they were just in display cases. There's a few rips online with demos https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PhhGfdkK9Ek https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PhhGfdkK9Ek but nothing really going over the machine
  - sixothree 3y ago
    Is it open‽
  - rnrn 3y ago
    I don’t think there’s been any indication that anyone is trying to figure out how to reopen Living Computers. Likely some other philanthropist would need to buy it and fund it in order for it to reopen. Paul Allen’s sister seems to have little interest in continuing to fund his smaller philanthropies / interests after his death (Flying Heritage & Combat Armor Museum: closed 2020, sold 2022, reopened by new owner; Cinerama: closed 2020, sold 2023, reopening planned by new owner; Living Computers: closed 2020, no public updates) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34831880 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34831880

by pcc 3y ago

kristopolous 3y ago

> Pretty sure these Docks and Task Bars with icons, that we all have at the bottom of our screens now, was an idea first seen in RISC OS No way. Windows 1.0 had it (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Microsoft_Windows_1.0_screenshot.png https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Microsoft_Windows_1.0_s...) . The RISC OS workflow of click on bottom to create new instance paradigm is probably from Xerox Star 8010 although might be earlier https://interface-experience.org/site/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/IE-Star-3.jpg https://interface-experience.org/site/wp-content/uploads/201... The GUI unification theory is fine but we're talking RISC OS 2023 being still like this. All the weird quirks are still there. Other systems have merged. Even ArcaOS, the successor to OS/2 has dropped all those strange tab systems that OS/2 Warp 3 took from PenpointOS. It's fairly hard to find something that's notably different that's ostensibly still being worked on.

fanf2 3y ago
Those Windows 1 icons are on the desktop, not a task bar.
- kristopolous 3y ago
  http://toastytech.com/guis/win1012.html http://toastytech.com/guis/win1012.html You can call it whatever you want but it's an inviolable horizontal container on the bottom of the screen reserved for iconified applications and storage controls upon which applications can not occlude. Maybe calling it an iconify dock is more appropriate. Microsoft called it "Icon Area": https://archive.org/details/microsoft-windows-1.03-hp-150-3.5-ssdd/Microsoft%20Windows%201.03%20%5BHP%20150%5D%20%283.5-SSDD%29/Documentation/MicrosoftWindowsFor_150AndVectra_5958-7637_450pages_Sep86/page/n51/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/microsoft-windows-1.03-hp-150-3.... Windows 1.0 doesn't really have a desktop metaphor in the modern sense as in some rectangle with free floating icons which represent arbitrary files or folders. Windows 2.0 made the icon space the entire background which can be occluded by applications and 3.0 introduced the merging of the metaphors into a "desktop" that we're all familiar with. Stating they're all equivalent I think is a bit of stretch.
  - duskwuff 3y ago
    > You can call it whatever you want but it's an inviolable horizontal container on the bottom of the screen reserved for iconified applications and storage controls upon which applications can not occlude. But it wasn't a concept that Microsoft was particularly wedded to. It disappeared in Windows 3.x.
    - kristopolous 3y ago
      Windows itself wasn't a concept microsoft was wedded to until windows 3.0 ... after 1.0 it was mostly axed. It took a giant internal effort to get windows 2.0 resourced for development and release and then there was a bunch of politics that started with TopView (which had many clones such as quarterdeck desqview) and ended with OS/2 1.3 that got 3.0 out the door. MS was probably fully committed to OS/2 up until about 1989/90" IBM was still pushing its MCA based PS/2 machines at the time and the writing was on the wall when the gang of nine did EISA as a response instead of forking over a license fee. I don't know what this has to do with anything. Claiming that RISC OS invented the dock or was the first to do it is bunk. I'm a huge fan of innovation and like RISC OS but I'm a bigger fan of accurate history. --- * accounts differ on this. Some, like Ferguson in the Computer Wars depict as a bad faith sabotage, while others such as in hard drive, brush that off as a conspiracy theory while others such as in barbarians led by Bill Gates say there were fundamental opinion conflicts by important primadonna programmers. I think it's likely all the above, there's enough people involved and the theories don't necessarily conflict

esafak 3y ago

There was more diversity in paradigms and technologies before Wintel stamped it out. In particular, non-American companies were more prominent. I can't speak for Intel but I feel that Microsoft held the industry back with their remarkable commitment to shoddiness and tastelessness. I feel a tinge of sadness reflecting on this fact when I walk through the Computer History Museum in Silicon Valley.

kristopolous 3y ago
Go to Living Computers in Seattle when they figure out how to reopen. CHM is a shadow of Living Computers. There's things like Xerox Altos and Apple 1s there that you can use. Sit at and actually do things with. They sadly do not have a Pixar image computer which is a remarkably obscure little thing I've wanted to see working for a while. I've seen 2 of them but they were just in display cases. There's a few rips online with demos https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PhhGfdkK9Ek https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PhhGfdkK9Ek but nothing really going over the machine
- sixothree 3y ago
  Is it open‽
- rnrn 3y ago
  I don’t think there’s been any indication that anyone is trying to figure out how to reopen Living Computers. Likely some other philanthropist would need to buy it and fund it in order for it to reopen. Paul Allen’s sister seems to have little interest in continuing to fund his smaller philanthropies / interests after his death (Flying Heritage & Combat Armor Museum: closed 2020, sold 2022, reopened by new owner; Cinerama: closed 2020, sold 2023, reopening planned by new owner; Living Computers: closed 2020, no public updates) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34831880 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34831880