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I have to wonder, how much of it saying what it is saying is just based on societal views (which leads to most written text that it was likely trained on having

I have to wonder, how much of it saying what it is saying is just based on societal views (which leads to most written text that it was likely trained on having a certain opinion) vs supposed "thoughts" on the opinion or pushing certain opinions by the company. Based on the example of it bringing up the ethical slut (fantastic book btw that I highly recommend even for people in monogamous relationships) and then turning around I have to wonder if it is the former. There is still a ton of stigma around non traditional relationships and kink that it makes sense for something like an LLM to lean in that way without additional tuning. Especially when any ethics about releasing untested AI goes completely out the window.

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_yb2s 3y ago
I strongly disagree about “The Ethical Slut.” The book endorses abuse and lack of compassion towards partners that are afraid, uninterested, or jealous about the idea of open relationships. It encourages people to basically do what they personally feel like and dismiss pain it causes others as their own problem. There is even a scenario in the book about a woman being bullied into attending a lesbian swinger party, lauding this behavior as helping to expand her horizons (by force). That’s definitely abuse, arguably even a form of rape. No, if people are interested in learning about these topics, get literally any other book. Open relationships require enthusiastic consent from both parties, and emotional sensitivity to your partners needs and feelings.
- nerdjon 3y ago
  I would be very curious if you could tell me what pages that is on because I do not remember any of this from that book. I remember the book emphasizing communication above all else and did not even shit on Monogamy. What it shit on is society assuming what should be the norm with no discussion. You are right that it requires enthusiastic consent from both parties. But that also doesn't mean that one party has to be unhappy because the other one is not interested in it. At some point you may have to admit that the relationship doesn't have a future if you cannot make this situation work. I feel like too often the focus is on "well I want an open relationship but my partner doesn't so thats the end of that" when in reality its a 2 way street. That doesn't give you a pass to cheat, but it also doesn't mean ignore what may make you happy.
  - jstarfish 3y ago
    pp. 174, "Finding Partners": An empowering story about a woman who gets pressured into attending an orgy, refuses to participate, is visibly uncomfortable the entire time, but still manages to hit it off with a guest who she later ends up in a relationship with outside of that context. Clearly, the ends justify the means. This is a pretty fucked up book in retrospect.
    - nerdjon 3y ago
      First, thank you for the section. Unfortunately I can't comment on this particular story, from what I can tell it is not in my edition of the book. The best I can find on this particular section is that it was in the first edition. I have the third edition so if it isn't there that would make sense why I don't recognize this story. For context page 174 on my book is talking about Consent and Making Agreements. The 2 references I can find is that it is either Chapter 11, or the first chapter of part 4. Which in my book is either "The Unethical Slut" or "Making Connections" neither of which can I find a story like this. Maybe it is in this edition but I don't currently see it. There is also no chapter or anything in index referred to as "Finding Partners". However, again without actually reading the story, I feel like we are doing ourselves a diservice if we also don't talk about where things get messy in this regard. A lot of what happens in these spaces are inertially uncomfortable for first time people. or people say the wrong thing and pressure someone into it. We should be able to admit faults and to call the entire book "fucked up" with a single chosen section really doesn't advance the conversation. To be clear it is wrong that she was pressured, but again without actually being able to read the story myself I am finding it difficult to actually comment on it.
- FireBeyond 3y ago
  I have not read The Ethical Slut so without commenting on the specifics, but agreed. I was in a long term, very open (kinky, BDSM) relationship with someone, but on the topic of opening things up, there was some guilt applied. "Perhaps if you were more progressive, you'd be into it..." as if dozens of other "progressive" traits in me, sexual or otherwise, were insufficient. It was very much an "unethical" approach at trying to introduce openness.

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_yb2s 3y ago

I strongly disagree about “The Ethical Slut.” The book endorses abuse and lack of compassion towards partners that are afraid, uninterested, or jealous about the idea of open relationships. It encourages people to basically do what they personally feel like and dismiss pain it causes others as their own problem. There is even a scenario in the book about a woman being bullied into attending a lesbian swinger party, lauding this behavior as helping to expand her horizons (by force). That’s definitely abuse, arguably even a form of rape. No, if people are interested in learning about these topics, get literally any other book. Open relationships require enthusiastic consent from both parties, and emotional sensitivity to your partners needs and feelings.

nerdjon 3y ago
I would be very curious if you could tell me what pages that is on because I do not remember any of this from that book. I remember the book emphasizing communication above all else and did not even shit on Monogamy. What it shit on is society assuming what should be the norm with no discussion. You are right that it requires enthusiastic consent from both parties. But that also doesn't mean that one party has to be unhappy because the other one is not interested in it. At some point you may have to admit that the relationship doesn't have a future if you cannot make this situation work. I feel like too often the focus is on "well I want an open relationship but my partner doesn't so thats the end of that" when in reality its a 2 way street. That doesn't give you a pass to cheat, but it also doesn't mean ignore what may make you happy.
- jstarfish 3y ago
  pp. 174, "Finding Partners": An empowering story about a woman who gets pressured into attending an orgy, refuses to participate, is visibly uncomfortable the entire time, but still manages to hit it off with a guest who she later ends up in a relationship with outside of that context. Clearly, the ends justify the means. This is a pretty fucked up book in retrospect.
  - nerdjon 3y ago
    First, thank you for the section. Unfortunately I can't comment on this particular story, from what I can tell it is not in my edition of the book. The best I can find on this particular section is that it was in the first edition. I have the third edition so if it isn't there that would make sense why I don't recognize this story. For context page 174 on my book is talking about Consent and Making Agreements. The 2 references I can find is that it is either Chapter 11, or the first chapter of part 4. Which in my book is either "The Unethical Slut" or "Making Connections" neither of which can I find a story like this. Maybe it is in this edition but I don't currently see it. There is also no chapter or anything in index referred to as "Finding Partners". However, again without actually reading the story, I feel like we are doing ourselves a diservice if we also don't talk about where things get messy in this regard. A lot of what happens in these spaces are inertially uncomfortable for first time people. or people say the wrong thing and pressure someone into it. We should be able to admit faults and to call the entire book "fucked up" with a single chosen section really doesn't advance the conversation. To be clear it is wrong that she was pressured, but again without actually being able to read the story myself I am finding it difficult to actually comment on it.
FireBeyond 3y ago
I have not read The Ethical Slut so without commenting on the specifics, but agreed. I was in a long term, very open (kinky, BDSM) relationship with someone, but on the topic of opening things up, there was some guilt applied. "Perhaps if you were more progressive, you'd be into it..." as if dozens of other "progressive" traits in me, sexual or otherwise, were insufficient. It was very much an "unethical" approach at trying to introduce openness.