4 ms·

I disagree that both are necessarily at odds. Practicing BDSM in a long term relationship is actually a good way to make it healthier, and many of the things t

I disagree that both are necessarily at odds. Practicing BDSM in a long term relationship is actually a good way to make it healthier, and many of the things that are good for one (communication, boundaries, self-knowledge) are good for the other. Even if you're trying to maximize orgasm, you're generally better off with one (or maybe a couple if you're lucky) of really good partners who know you well and who you have excellent chemistry with than a bunch of randos. Conversely, a long term relationship without any sexual chemistry is very likely to end badly.

nerdjon 3y ago
So I feel the need to disagree with the last part of this because Asexual people exist. I am in a long term relationship with one. You seem like someone that I would describe as "sex positive" and I feel the need to point out that being in that realm we shouldn't ignore that there are asexual people and it is possible to get different things from different people. I may not have many sexual relationships with my partner but being in an open relationship myself I don't have to put that pressure on him.
- achenet 3y ago
  you're very correct, thank you for pointing that out ^_^
btilly 3y ago
That gets complicated. BDSM can be a positive in a healthy relationship. But I've also seen lots of abusive relationships where the abuser gaslit the target into accepting the abuse as BDSM. And the line between the two is rather fuzzy. Therefore the fact that it is CALLED BDSM doesn't make it healthy.
- altairprime 3y ago
  Doesn’t necessarily make it healthy. Gaslighting will use any and all labels at hand, no matter how irrelevant they are to gaslighting. So, keep in mind that this advice is generically correct for any category label, not just BDSM. “But I love you!” is much more commonly used as a gaslighting substrate, for example.
  - btilly 3y ago
    Gaslighting uses all labels at hand. But BDSM is convenient in that pretty much any form of abusive behavior can be excused with, "We're just kinky people into BDSM." So sure, "I love you" is used as a bad excuse for a lot of unpleasant stuff. BDSM is used as an excuse for far worse stuff. This does not make either love or BDSM bad - ideas are not responsible for the people who hold them. But it does make me uncomfortable about having people blindly trust an LLM's advise on the topic.
    - altairprime 3y ago
      Blindly trusting LLM advice on any topic is a bad idea, certainly, so I’m glad to see awareness raised in that regard at least.
    - jstarfish 3y ago
      > But BDSM is convenient in that pretty much any form of abusive behavior can be excused with, "We're just kinky people into BDSM." > But it does make me uncomfortable about having people blindly trust an LLM's advise on the topic. Never understood why that community struggles to disambiguate this. Seems obvious that it stops being kinky and starts being abusive when the other party no longer derives pleasure from the arrangement.
      - altairprime 3y ago
        It starts being abusive when the other party is coerced, pressured, obligated, or otherwise compelled through force or misdirection, to continue the arrangement. Coercion often begins while the other party is enjoying themselves. That’s still abuse.
      - btilly 3y ago
        H. L. Menken's quote applies. "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." It really isn't that simple. Coming at it from the one direction. A variety of conditions from Stockholm syndrome to battered housewife syndrome will cause people to believe that they want and enjoy abusive dynamics. It is speculated that these are tied to evolutionary adaptations to allow us to adapt sudden changes of life circumstances, such as becoming enslaved. Coming at it from the other direction. People who are into BDSM often trigger these or related dynamics. This is done, on purpose, for pleasure. Search for "maintenance beatings" to verify. Once triggered, it is easy to wind up with those syndromes. Now if you're looking at these two couples, how do you tell the difference? Their lives are the same. Thanks to the way we rewrite history, their memories are indistinguishable. And, even if it was once consensual, sometimes people change. How can anyone, including them, know if this is what they would freely choose any more if the abuse dynamic were removed? While you think about it, go read up on battered housewife syndrome. Then listen to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2odlGAxuwQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2odlGAxuwQ. Is that written from the point of view of a victim of domestic abuse, or a women who simply likes it rough and got what she wanted?
throw_m239339 3y ago
> Conversely, a long term relationship without any sexual chemistry is very likely to end badly. In a relationship built around a sex fetish that involves sadism, sure, that's 100% true.
FireBeyond 3y ago
> Practicing BDSM in a long term relationship is actually a good way to make it healthier, and many of the things that are good for one (communication, boundaries, self-knowledge) are good for the other. That's very black and white. More realistically, "practicing or exploring BDSM if parties are interested and curious". When I spent a lot more time than I do now in the BDSM scene, there was definitely a subset (and I'm not including you in this - though the ... fetishization ... of BDSM as a 'superset' of a normal relationship is a part of it) of people who had (with varying degrees of subtlety/bluntness) an attitude of sniffing and looking down their noses... "Ohhhh... you're just a vanilla person, are you?" like they were missing out on something. Nothing wrong with vanilla. Nothing wrong with BDSM. Either can be good. In reverse, it's interesting the connotation - people rarely suggest "Have you tried removing BDSM from your relationship to see if that will make it healthier?" because they don't want to accept that - for some people - it may be exactly that.

nerdjon 3y ago

So I feel the need to disagree with the last part of this because Asexual people exist. I am in a long term relationship with one. You seem like someone that I would describe as "sex positive" and I feel the need to point out that being in that realm we shouldn't ignore that there are asexual people and it is possible to get different things from different people. I may not have many sexual relationships with my partner but being in an open relationship myself I don't have to put that pressure on him.

achenet 3y ago
you're very correct, thank you for pointing that out ^_^

btilly 3y ago

That gets complicated. BDSM can be a positive in a healthy relationship. But I've also seen lots of abusive relationships where the abuser gaslit the target into accepting the abuse as BDSM. And the line between the two is rather fuzzy. Therefore the fact that it is CALLED BDSM doesn't make it healthy.

altairprime 3y ago
Doesn’t necessarily make it healthy. Gaslighting will use any and all labels at hand, no matter how irrelevant they are to gaslighting. So, keep in mind that this advice is generically correct for any category label, not just BDSM. “But I love you!” is much more commonly used as a gaslighting substrate, for example.
- btilly 3y ago
  Gaslighting uses all labels at hand. But BDSM is convenient in that pretty much any form of abusive behavior can be excused with, "We're just kinky people into BDSM." So sure, "I love you" is used as a bad excuse for a lot of unpleasant stuff. BDSM is used as an excuse for far worse stuff. This does not make either love or BDSM bad - ideas are not responsible for the people who hold them. But it does make me uncomfortable about having people blindly trust an LLM's advise on the topic.
  - altairprime 3y ago
    Blindly trusting LLM advice on any topic is a bad idea, certainly, so I’m glad to see awareness raised in that regard at least.
  - jstarfish 3y ago
    > But BDSM is convenient in that pretty much any form of abusive behavior can be excused with, "We're just kinky people into BDSM." > But it does make me uncomfortable about having people blindly trust an LLM's advise on the topic. Never understood why that community struggles to disambiguate this. Seems obvious that it stops being kinky and starts being abusive when the other party no longer derives pleasure from the arrangement.
    - altairprime 3y ago
      It starts being abusive when the other party is coerced, pressured, obligated, or otherwise compelled through force or misdirection, to continue the arrangement. Coercion often begins while the other party is enjoying themselves. That’s still abuse.
    - btilly 3y ago
      H. L. Menken's quote applies. "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." It really isn't that simple. Coming at it from the one direction. A variety of conditions from Stockholm syndrome to battered housewife syndrome will cause people to believe that they want and enjoy abusive dynamics. It is speculated that these are tied to evolutionary adaptations to allow us to adapt sudden changes of life circumstances, such as becoming enslaved. Coming at it from the other direction. People who are into BDSM often trigger these or related dynamics. This is done, on purpose, for pleasure. Search for "maintenance beatings" to verify. Once triggered, it is easy to wind up with those syndromes. Now if you're looking at these two couples, how do you tell the difference? Their lives are the same. Thanks to the way we rewrite history, their memories are indistinguishable. And, even if it was once consensual, sometimes people change. How can anyone, including them, know if this is what they would freely choose any more if the abuse dynamic were removed? While you think about it, go read up on battered housewife syndrome. Then listen to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2odlGAxuwQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2odlGAxuwQ. Is that written from the point of view of a victim of domestic abuse, or a women who simply likes it rough and got what she wanted?

throw_m239339 3y ago

> Conversely, a long term relationship without any sexual chemistry is very likely to end badly. In a relationship built around a sex fetish that involves sadism, sure, that's 100% true.

FireBeyond 3y ago

> Practicing BDSM in a long term relationship is actually a good way to make it healthier, and many of the things that are good for one (communication, boundaries, self-knowledge) are good for the other. That's very black and white. More realistically, "practicing or exploring BDSM if parties are interested and curious". When I spent a lot more time than I do now in the BDSM scene, there was definitely a subset (and I'm not including you in this - though the ... fetishization ... of BDSM as a 'superset' of a normal relationship is a part of it) of people who had (with varying degrees of subtlety/bluntness) an attitude of sniffing and looking down their noses... "Ohhhh... you're just a vanilla person, are you?" like they were missing out on something. Nothing wrong with vanilla. Nothing wrong with BDSM. Either can be good. In reverse, it's interesting the connotation - people rarely suggest "Have you tried removing BDSM from your relationship to see if that will make it healthier?" because they don't want to accept that - for some people - it may be exactly that.