4 ms·

Well deserved. Iran has so much potential. It's extremely sad how a small group of extremists holds the entire country hostage.

by Gud 3y ago

screye 3y ago
Genuine question, doesn't the ultra-orthodox wing reflect the popular opinion of the country ? My understanding is that Iran has among the greatest Urban-Rural divides in the world, and that the rural population is large enough to democratically force their conservative views onto the urban population. Turkey seems to be in a similar position, but their proximity to NATO and Europe keeps them somewhat grounded. > small group of extremists holds the entire country hostage I'm just not sure that the group of people we consider extremists are that small.
- Gud 3y ago
  The Iranian government has killed thousands of people and repressed other viewpoints not supported by the ruling elite. It is possible the general population in Iran support this. All I know is that in countries where the people are allowed to voice their opinions freely, they generally oppose raping and torturing prisoners.
  - quotz 3y ago
    But this also works for China. I dont see any nobel prizes awarded to the uyghurs yet
- Centigonal 3y ago
  Iran's Supreme leader and guardian council have ultimate veto power over all legislation and candidates. In the past decade, there have been massive nationwide protests almost annually, often with election fairness as a theme. The Iranian military has a special wing, the IRGC, that is dedicated to the Supreme leader and used to crush protest or dissent. These are not characteristics of a functioning liberal democracy. If Iran's regime reflects the popular opinion of Iranians (which I believe it doesn't), then that's in spite of their government, not because of it.
  - lingben 3y ago
    What you write is correct, except for this part: The IRGC is not a 'special wing' of the Iranian military. They are a completely separate organization which has no equivalency in Western societies or defense departments. The IRGC is tasked with protecting and spreading Khomeini's brand of Islamic theocracy throughout the world. This is why you see Iranian proxies in Yemen, Nigeria, Lebanon, Gaza, Syria, etc. The Iranian military is tasked with protecting the Iranian nation and people. The military is a lower priority and less funded that IRGC, especially since the IRGC is a major actor in Iran's economy via various bonyads.
- catlover76 3y ago
  I am only a little more informed than most people on the topic, but I think it's kind of like this: The conservative majority likes having an Islamic Republic, and has a lingering "memory" of the corruption and such of the Shah's regime, but that doesn't necessarily mean they like what the current regime has become. And as another poster said, the majority of the country, whatever their social/religious views, seems to be fed up with the country's rather dire economic state. It's been that way for the past like 5 years at least.
  - michaeltimo 3y ago
    The main question is, what percentage of the society are these conservatives? What's the opinion of the rest of people? Unlike you, in my opinion, most people have good memories of the Shah's time (Zamane Shah). It's quite funny, but most of the hospitals that are now named after Khomeini Hospital were built by the Shah. Also most stadiums and universities. Moreover, this is a superficial view of the story if we think that what annoys people in Iran is mostly economic. This can be seen even in the slogan of the biggest anti-government demonstration that started last year, "Women, Life, Freedom", the three things that has been oppressed in the last four decades. Yes, economic issues have put a lot of pressure on the people, but people's wishes should not be reduced to it.
    - catlover76 3y ago
      It's probably a little bit like they now think this is worse than Zamaan-e-Shah, and that time is now viewed with history's rose-colored glasses But the Shah was overthrown for a reason (and his overthrow was good and just even if what succeeded it didn't pan out well), and was a pretty popular event. In the absence of the Regime's latest round of oppression, where they really turned it up a notch, and in the absence of economic turmoil, I doubt there would be much by the way of serious protests. I don't believe that absolutely everything can be reduced to economic factors, but I think that's usually a pretty big motivator in terms of getting most of any population to care enough about something to risk life and limb to protest.
- red_trumpet 3y ago
  Well, shooting down protestors is not democratic. Democracy is not a tyranny of the majority!
  - realistic2020 3y ago
    > Well, shooting down protestors is not democratic. Democracy is not a tyranny of the majority! Are you speaking about Iran or the USA or Israel? https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/08/george-floyd-killing-police-arrest-non-violent-protesters https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/08/george-floyd... https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/05/un-experts-demand-justice-al-jazeera-journalist-one-year-anniversary-her https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/05/un-experts-d... https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/rachel-corrie-activist-crushed-israel-bulldozer https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/rachel-corrie-ac...
- y-c-o-m-b 3y ago
  That is not possible to answer due to the very high level of oppression. I still have Muslim family back home in Iran, especially in rural areas of Gilan province. They are very much against the government and its form of rule, but they are also not too keen on the socially liberal aspects of western democracy either. If I were to draw a rough comparison to the US political spectrum, I would place them as moderates similar to Mitt Romney supporters, or at worst McCain. The ultra-orthodox - closer to the Ted Cruz types - is mostly made up of the the Mullahs and their following for which there are plenty, but far outnumbered by moderates and liberals combined. Again though, this is impossible to measure as if you go around surveying the country, most people (especially in the elder generation) will not publicly speak out against the government and its policies.
- lingben 3y ago
  GAMAAN has provided insight into Iranian opinions with intelligent polling and verification methods that correct for the Islamic theocratic regime's authoritarian control over society. The coles notes are that the majority of Iranians do NOT support the Islamic regime, are not religious and do not support the theocratic laws and regulations such as enforced hijab and other gender apartheid measures currently in place against Iranian women. This video explains their methodology and results: https://youtu.be/YONfg85gPU4?t=4341 https://youtu.be/YONfg85gPU4?t=4341 https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/iran-secular-shift-gamaan.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/iran-secular-shift-g... https://gamaan.org/survey-reports/ https://gamaan.org/survey-reports/
- leaguedreams 3y ago
  Iran is actually relatively unique in the developed world in that their urban population is about as conservative as the population as a whole (Japan is another example IIRC). There is nuance here (most of the conservative urban population is concentrated in certain cities and neighborhoods) but the urban/rural divide does not explain the political divide.
bettercallsalad 3y ago
Ever wondered how these “small group of extremists” came about holding the entire country hostage? That’s because US nation state apparatus decided to overthrow democratically elected government there for their own interests. When you study American foreign policy, you can’t help but wondering it’s indeed not the interest of USA to have once unconquerable empires like Persia to be thriving and realize their full potential. US would rather have dysfunctional corrupt extremists dependent on foreign aids rule an entire region than challenging its hegemony. So next time you hear our media preach how detestable other foreign leaders like Erdogan or Modi or MBS is, think twice what the agenda there is. USA has had no problems supporting savage regimes for their own interests. I will pick WMD monster Saddam Hussein any day everyday over whatever there is left in Iraq today. History repeats itself. Nation state with media collusion saturating its own citizens mind with propaganda to serve their own interests (often just a very small group of people living north of Richmond) where the same group of people keep drumming the war machines for decades under different banners. Enough said.
- rnk 3y ago
  Yeah, the us did kick it off in Iran. Then religious extremists managed to transition that to longterm despotic control of the country. Before the us overthrew the former govt, Iran wasn't exactly an unconquerable empire for a very long time though. And the us didn't learn it's lesson, having done this over and over again in south america and central america and other places. It seems like we are currently in a period of not doing this but all it takes is a new presidential whim to kick it off again, probably. US actions don't remove the ability for their to be reliable observation that certain leaders are terrible. Kicking up hate for muslims is not a good thing long term for India. Killing your democratic enemies and cutting them up with saws in embassies is also clearly wrong. I feel completely empowered to point these things out, while being able to talk about the many problems in the US too.
  - nojvek 3y ago
    US does whatever the President, Senate, Congress votes to do at the time. It seems US is learning it's lesson but only takes one president to declare a war. Iran and Afghanistan were massive failures and trillions of tax payer dollars wasted. Even US supporting Ukraine has resulted in failure. Failure in the sense of millions of lives lost and displaced, no victory for Ukraine and Russia is still destroying their infrastructure. I support US helping other countries when a victory is swift and definitive.

Well deserved. Iran has so much potential. It's extremely sad how a small group of extremists holds the entire country hostage.

by Gud 3y ago

Well deserved. Iran has so much potential. It's extremely sad how a small group of extremists holds the entire country hostage.

screye 3y ago

Genuine question, doesn't the ultra-orthodox wing reflect the popular opinion of the country ? My understanding is that Iran has among the greatest Urban-Rural divides in the world, and that the rural population is large enough to democratically force their conservative views onto the urban population. Turkey seems to be in a similar position, but their proximity to NATO and Europe keeps them somewhat grounded. > small group of extremists holds the entire country hostage I'm just not sure that the group of people we consider extremists are that small.

Gud 3y ago
The Iranian government has killed thousands of people and repressed other viewpoints not supported by the ruling elite. It is possible the general population in Iran support this. All I know is that in countries where the people are allowed to voice their opinions freely, they generally oppose raping and torturing prisoners.
- quotz 3y ago
  But this also works for China. I dont see any nobel prizes awarded to the uyghurs yet
Centigonal 3y ago
Iran's Supreme leader and guardian council have ultimate veto power over all legislation and candidates. In the past decade, there have been massive nationwide protests almost annually, often with election fairness as a theme. The Iranian military has a special wing, the IRGC, that is dedicated to the Supreme leader and used to crush protest or dissent. These are not characteristics of a functioning liberal democracy. If Iran's regime reflects the popular opinion of Iranians (which I believe it doesn't), then that's in spite of their government, not because of it.
- lingben 3y ago
  What you write is correct, except for this part: The IRGC is not a 'special wing' of the Iranian military. They are a completely separate organization which has no equivalency in Western societies or defense departments. The IRGC is tasked with protecting and spreading Khomeini's brand of Islamic theocracy throughout the world. This is why you see Iranian proxies in Yemen, Nigeria, Lebanon, Gaza, Syria, etc. The Iranian military is tasked with protecting the Iranian nation and people. The military is a lower priority and less funded that IRGC, especially since the IRGC is a major actor in Iran's economy via various bonyads.
catlover76 3y ago
I am only a little more informed than most people on the topic, but I think it's kind of like this: The conservative majority likes having an Islamic Republic, and has a lingering "memory" of the corruption and such of the Shah's regime, but that doesn't necessarily mean they like what the current regime has become. And as another poster said, the majority of the country, whatever their social/religious views, seems to be fed up with the country's rather dire economic state. It's been that way for the past like 5 years at least.
- michaeltimo 3y ago
  The main question is, what percentage of the society are these conservatives? What's the opinion of the rest of people? Unlike you, in my opinion, most people have good memories of the Shah's time (Zamane Shah). It's quite funny, but most of the hospitals that are now named after Khomeini Hospital were built by the Shah. Also most stadiums and universities. Moreover, this is a superficial view of the story if we think that what annoys people in Iran is mostly economic. This can be seen even in the slogan of the biggest anti-government demonstration that started last year, "Women, Life, Freedom", the three things that has been oppressed in the last four decades. Yes, economic issues have put a lot of pressure on the people, but people's wishes should not be reduced to it.
  - catlover76 3y ago
    It's probably a little bit like they now think this is worse than Zamaan-e-Shah, and that time is now viewed with history's rose-colored glasses But the Shah was overthrown for a reason (and his overthrow was good and just even if what succeeded it didn't pan out well), and was a pretty popular event. In the absence of the Regime's latest round of oppression, where they really turned it up a notch, and in the absence of economic turmoil, I doubt there would be much by the way of serious protests. I don't believe that absolutely everything can be reduced to economic factors, but I think that's usually a pretty big motivator in terms of getting most of any population to care enough about something to risk life and limb to protest.
red_trumpet 3y ago
Well, shooting down protestors is not democratic. Democracy is not a tyranny of the majority!
- realistic2020 3y ago
  > Well, shooting down protestors is not democratic. Democracy is not a tyranny of the majority! Are you speaking about Iran or the USA or Israel? https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/08/george-floyd-killing-police-arrest-non-violent-protesters https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/08/george-floyd... https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/05/un-experts-demand-justice-al-jazeera-journalist-one-year-anniversary-her https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/05/un-experts-d... https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/rachel-corrie-activist-crushed-israel-bulldozer https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/rachel-corrie-ac...
y-c-o-m-b 3y ago
That is not possible to answer due to the very high level of oppression. I still have Muslim family back home in Iran, especially in rural areas of Gilan province. They are very much against the government and its form of rule, but they are also not too keen on the socially liberal aspects of western democracy either. If I were to draw a rough comparison to the US political spectrum, I would place them as moderates similar to Mitt Romney supporters, or at worst McCain. The ultra-orthodox - closer to the Ted Cruz types - is mostly made up of the the Mullahs and their following for which there are plenty, but far outnumbered by moderates and liberals combined. Again though, this is impossible to measure as if you go around surveying the country, most people (especially in the elder generation) will not publicly speak out against the government and its policies.
lingben 3y ago
GAMAAN has provided insight into Iranian opinions with intelligent polling and verification methods that correct for the Islamic theocratic regime's authoritarian control over society. The coles notes are that the majority of Iranians do NOT support the Islamic regime, are not religious and do not support the theocratic laws and regulations such as enforced hijab and other gender apartheid measures currently in place against Iranian women. This video explains their methodology and results: https://youtu.be/YONfg85gPU4?t=4341 https://youtu.be/YONfg85gPU4?t=4341 https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/iran-secular-shift-gamaan.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/iran-secular-shift-g... https://gamaan.org/survey-reports/ https://gamaan.org/survey-reports/
leaguedreams 3y ago
Iran is actually relatively unique in the developed world in that their urban population is about as conservative as the population as a whole (Japan is another example IIRC). There is nuance here (most of the conservative urban population is concentrated in certain cities and neighborhoods) but the urban/rural divide does not explain the political divide.

bettercallsalad 3y ago

Ever wondered how these “small group of extremists” came about holding the entire country hostage? That’s because US nation state apparatus decided to overthrow democratically elected government there for their own interests. When you study American foreign policy, you can’t help but wondering it’s indeed not the interest of USA to have once unconquerable empires like Persia to be thriving and realize their full potential. US would rather have dysfunctional corrupt extremists dependent on foreign aids rule an entire region than challenging its hegemony. So next time you hear our media preach how detestable other foreign leaders like Erdogan or Modi or MBS is, think twice what the agenda there is. USA has had no problems supporting savage regimes for their own interests. I will pick WMD monster Saddam Hussein any day everyday over whatever there is left in Iraq today. History repeats itself. Nation state with media collusion saturating its own citizens mind with propaganda to serve their own interests (often just a very small group of people living north of Richmond) where the same group of people keep drumming the war machines for decades under different banners. Enough said.

rnk 3y ago
Yeah, the us did kick it off in Iran. Then religious extremists managed to transition that to longterm despotic control of the country. Before the us overthrew the former govt, Iran wasn't exactly an unconquerable empire for a very long time though. And the us didn't learn it's lesson, having done this over and over again in south america and central america and other places. It seems like we are currently in a period of not doing this but all it takes is a new presidential whim to kick it off again, probably. US actions don't remove the ability for their to be reliable observation that certain leaders are terrible. Kicking up hate for muslims is not a good thing long term for India. Killing your democratic enemies and cutting them up with saws in embassies is also clearly wrong. I feel completely empowered to point these things out, while being able to talk about the many problems in the US too.
- nojvek 3y ago
  US does whatever the President, Senate, Congress votes to do at the time. It seems US is learning it's lesson but only takes one president to declare a war. Iran and Afghanistan were massive failures and trillions of tax payer dollars wasted. Even US supporting Ukraine has resulted in failure. Failure in the sense of millions of lives lost and displaced, no victory for Ukraine and Russia is still destroying their infrastructure. I support US helping other countries when a victory is swift and definitive.