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To your second point I thought about including a disclaimer, but it made the original comment too wordy. Aptitude is correlated to, but not the only part of enj

To your second point I thought about including a disclaimer, but it made the original comment too wordy. Aptitude is correlated to, but not the only part of enjoying something. You can't fix people not liking something, that's just personal preference and totally fine. I took accounting in college and really didn't like it, no amount of assistance is going to make me like it and ill never be an accountant. I've been laughing to myself a bit, not about your comment, but because predictably there are so many people who chose the most uncharitable way to view, both my original comment and the people using these tools. Copying and pasting, never learning and becoming knowledgeable, as the most probable outcome that will come from this. That's just not how it works. Excluding the people who will stop anyway of which there will always be, what this will do is break down barriers for a lot of people (not everyone), who thought they wouldn't like it or couldn't be good at it and entice them, hook them, and then build them up. It's just a new way of learning programming. Hacking with LLMs is going to be the entry point for these people, not the final destination.

oooyay 3y ago
I hope my comment didn't come off as jest or cynicism, if it did I apologize and that's not the way I intended it. I agree overall that LLMs will lower friction and barriers to entry for some folks looking to get into hobby hacking, programming, or software engineering as a profession. Anecdotally, I think that's true beyond software. In wood working I find LLMs helpful when youtube leaves me with unanswered questions. More anecdotally, I have some high hopes for when LLMs can use tools, I think paired with the knowledge I've gained over the years that using an LLM that uses tools will be like the force multiplier I gain when using a compiler. To some degree, like any useful tool (eg: StackOverflow) there will be those who use it recklessly, but I'm less concerned about that because those people will always exist. The "anyone can do it" sentiment is highly inclusive, but also a bit falsey and what I took more disagreement with. I've met a good number of people who got into the industry of software engineering based on sentiments like that, thinking the job would eventually become "easy" and it never does for them. That or they falsely equivocate that sentiment with working at a FAANG, that these are just easy jobs where you get paid beaucoup bucks only to find out that's not so true, or at least not nearly as common as the sentiment invokes. That's worth being a bit cautious in language in my opinion, but I say that out of having experienced how hard it is to navigate this industry at times. To find out the things that you knew to be true that got you into it in the first place were false or falsey would be a big let down. I think these things are worth talking about and I don't want to make this industry look more gatekept than it is so I don't think I'm 100% right with my opinion, but I also don't want to give people false impressions. I appreciate you being willing to respond and talk about this stuff.
- ianbutler 3y ago
  Thank you for that, but you were fine! I replied to you because your criticism seemed thought out. I think ultimately if I had to try and make a more balanced take, it would be that this will help a non trivial amount of people become programmers as it makes programming more approachable where traditionally as a field we struggle with that. It will not magically make you a top programmer or anything like that. I also think it's unavoidable that some people regardless will not be cut out for it. I really wasn't trying to suggest that this will solve the difficulties of becoming a professional programmer, but I do think it is going to be the entry point into the field for a significant amount of future programmers. I am glad that for once I'm being cautioned about being overly optimistic though, typically I fall on the other side of that spectrum and it's something I've had multiple people tell me to work on.
sharemywin 3y ago
I think the bottom line is it can level up everyone's skills on most subjects. If your an Expert and you only care about that one subject it's probably not that useful. or you expect perfection from AI it makes mistakes. but you know what they say. To err is human but you need recursive AI to really fuck thing up.

oooyay 3y ago

I hope my comment didn't come off as jest or cynicism, if it did I apologize and that's not the way I intended it. I agree overall that LLMs will lower friction and barriers to entry for some folks looking to get into hobby hacking, programming, or software engineering as a profession. Anecdotally, I think that's true beyond software. In wood working I find LLMs helpful when youtube leaves me with unanswered questions. More anecdotally, I have some high hopes for when LLMs can use tools, I think paired with the knowledge I've gained over the years that using an LLM that uses tools will be like the force multiplier I gain when using a compiler. To some degree, like any useful tool (eg: StackOverflow) there will be those who use it recklessly, but I'm less concerned about that because those people will always exist. The "anyone can do it" sentiment is highly inclusive, but also a bit falsey and what I took more disagreement with. I've met a good number of people who got into the industry of software engineering based on sentiments like that, thinking the job would eventually become "easy" and it never does for them. That or they falsely equivocate that sentiment with working at a FAANG, that these are just easy jobs where you get paid beaucoup bucks only to find out that's not so true, or at least not nearly as common as the sentiment invokes. That's worth being a bit cautious in language in my opinion, but I say that out of having experienced how hard it is to navigate this industry at times. To find out the things that you knew to be true that got you into it in the first place were false or falsey would be a big let down. I think these things are worth talking about and I don't want to make this industry look more gatekept than it is so I don't think I'm 100% right with my opinion, but I also don't want to give people false impressions. I appreciate you being willing to respond and talk about this stuff.

ianbutler 3y ago
Thank you for that, but you were fine! I replied to you because your criticism seemed thought out. I think ultimately if I had to try and make a more balanced take, it would be that this will help a non trivial amount of people become programmers as it makes programming more approachable where traditionally as a field we struggle with that. It will not magically make you a top programmer or anything like that. I also think it's unavoidable that some people regardless will not be cut out for it. I really wasn't trying to suggest that this will solve the difficulties of becoming a professional programmer, but I do think it is going to be the entry point into the field for a significant amount of future programmers. I am glad that for once I'm being cautioned about being overly optimistic though, typically I fall on the other side of that spectrum and it's something I've had multiple people tell me to work on.

sharemywin 3y ago

I think the bottom line is it can level up everyone's skills on most subjects. If your an Expert and you only care about that one subject it's probably not that useful. or you expect perfection from AI it makes mistakes. but you know what they say. To err is human but you need recursive AI to really fuck thing up.