5 ms·

I highly doubt western europe will open up their doors. It's already difficult to immigrant there now. Once pressed I imagine the opposite scenario. No way Euro

I highly doubt western europe will open up their doors. It's already difficult to immigrant there now. Once pressed I imagine the opposite scenario. No way Europe can sustain immigration accessibility on the level of USA and still include all of the benefits.

elzbardico 3y ago
It is hard if you are a qualified professional looking for work in your area, not if you are classified as a refugee.
- schnitzelstoat 3y ago
  Which is the opposite to how it should be.
  - sofixa 3y ago
    Why? The whole point of accepting refugees is that they're running away from a horrible situation from where they came from (persecution, war, famine, genocide, uninhabitable weather, you get the gist) and accepting them is saving their lives. They are, in theory, the ones most in need. Of course there are people just looking for better economic opportunities, and people who target specific Western countries to be a refugee in (e.g. Pakistanis that show up in Germany - if they were really fleeing from a critical situation they would stop in the first place that is calm and safe, not continue the journey to a richer country), but they aren't really refugees in the actual sense of the word.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
sofixa 3y ago
Define difficult? Take France for instance, 10% of people living in France in 2021 were immigrants (born in another country). Net Migration is in the 100-200k range per year. https://www.lemonde.fr/en/france/article/2023/03/30/one-in-10-people-in-france-an-immigrant-statistics-agency_6021240_7.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/france/article/2023/03/30/one-in-1... https://www.statista.com/statistics/686137/net-migration-france/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/686137/net-migration-fra...
- endisneigh 3y ago
  France, Spain and Germany are among the betters in terms of immigration. If you consider the rest of western europe, not so great. Even france in particular isn't really that accommodating.
carlob 3y ago
It's not like we're going to have any choice in the matter. Vast regions of the world are quickly becoming uninhabitable both because of climate change and of the damage done during colonialism and its political consequences. We can either choose to open the doors willingly or they are going to be blown open. I personally think it would be more ethical and pracical to open them now, but I seem to be in the minority.
- logicchains 3y ago
  >Vast regions of the world are quickly becoming uninhabitable Have you got any concrete examples? The temperature range for human habitability is pretty wide; the temperature regularly gets up to 50 degrees in summer in the Gulf States (like UAE and Saudi) yet the quality of life there is quite high, in spite of it being a literal desert. Most of the refugees entering Europe are fleeing good ol' fashioned wars, not environmental catastrophes.
  - carlob 3y ago
    You don't need to have a very high average. It's sufficient to have a high wet bulb temperature for a few days to kill off large portions of the population. Also consider that Africa is going to represent most of the demographic growth of the world in the next few decades. And consider the effects of all this combined with political instability you quickly get into a situation like the floods in Libya.
- blibble 3y ago
  > We can either choose to open the doors willingly or they are going to be blown open. I'm afraid the reality is likely to be that once the doors are blown open, electorates will vote for people that will man them with machine guns
- leetcrew 3y ago
  > We can either choose to open the doors willingly or they are going to be blown open. why do you think this? it's next to impossible to completely stop piecemeal border crossings. but beyond a certain scale, it becomes something that militaries can oppose directly. are you suggesting the europeans would not have the stomach for military action against migrants, or that the migrants would somehow defeat them in sheer numbers? if it's the former, I would point out that were are already seeing questionable events with migrant ships in the mediterranean.
Gravityloss 3y ago
I've hired IT professionals from a lot of non-EU countries to a EU country and it was quite easy. I don't know where does this argument come from. I think it's much harder to get to USA.
- endisneigh 3y ago
  I'm talking about citizenship. I'm not familiar with every single country's policies, but it's simply a fact that the USA is more accommodating to immigrants than Germany and France, for example. France for instance barely provides support for English speakers, god forbid any other country that speaks other languages. An immigrant who finds themselves in New York City, to contrast, will see that the city provides government assistance in dozens of languages and proof of address and things of that nature aren't even required.
  - Gravityloss 3y ago
    Maybe some bigger countries have this expectation that most people talk their main language and movies are dubbed etc. Certainly also USA. Smaller countries this is not the case. For example in nordic countries you can get by quite fine with English.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

elzbardico 3y ago

It is hard if you are a qualified professional looking for work in your area, not if you are classified as a refugee.

schnitzelstoat 3y ago
Which is the opposite to how it should be.
- sofixa 3y ago
  Why? The whole point of accepting refugees is that they're running away from a horrible situation from where they came from (persecution, war, famine, genocide, uninhabitable weather, you get the gist) and accepting them is saving their lives. They are, in theory, the ones most in need. Of course there are people just looking for better economic opportunities, and people who target specific Western countries to be a refugee in (e.g. Pakistanis that show up in Germany - if they were really fleeing from a critical situation they would stop in the first place that is calm and safe, not continue the journey to a richer country), but they aren't really refugees in the actual sense of the word.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

sofixa 3y ago

Define difficult? Take France for instance, 10% of people living in France in 2021 were immigrants (born in another country). Net Migration is in the 100-200k range per year. https://www.lemonde.fr/en/france/article/2023/03/30/one-in-10-people-in-france-an-immigrant-statistics-agency_6021240_7.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/france/article/2023/03/30/one-in-1... https://www.statista.com/statistics/686137/net-migration-france/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/686137/net-migration-fra...

endisneigh 3y ago
France, Spain and Germany are among the betters in terms of immigration. If you consider the rest of western europe, not so great. Even france in particular isn't really that accommodating.

carlob 3y ago

It's not like we're going to have any choice in the matter. Vast regions of the world are quickly becoming uninhabitable both because of climate change and of the damage done during colonialism and its political consequences. We can either choose to open the doors willingly or they are going to be blown open. I personally think it would be more ethical and pracical to open them now, but I seem to be in the minority.

logicchains 3y ago
>Vast regions of the world are quickly becoming uninhabitable Have you got any concrete examples? The temperature range for human habitability is pretty wide; the temperature regularly gets up to 50 degrees in summer in the Gulf States (like UAE and Saudi) yet the quality of life there is quite high, in spite of it being a literal desert. Most of the refugees entering Europe are fleeing good ol' fashioned wars, not environmental catastrophes.
- carlob 3y ago
  You don't need to have a very high average. It's sufficient to have a high wet bulb temperature for a few days to kill off large portions of the population. Also consider that Africa is going to represent most of the demographic growth of the world in the next few decades. And consider the effects of all this combined with political instability you quickly get into a situation like the floods in Libya.
blibble 3y ago
> We can either choose to open the doors willingly or they are going to be blown open. I'm afraid the reality is likely to be that once the doors are blown open, electorates will vote for people that will man them with machine guns
leetcrew 3y ago
> We can either choose to open the doors willingly or they are going to be blown open. why do you think this? it's next to impossible to completely stop piecemeal border crossings. but beyond a certain scale, it becomes something that militaries can oppose directly. are you suggesting the europeans would not have the stomach for military action against migrants, or that the migrants would somehow defeat them in sheer numbers? if it's the former, I would point out that were are already seeing questionable events with migrant ships in the mediterranean.

Gravityloss 3y ago

I've hired IT professionals from a lot of non-EU countries to a EU country and it was quite easy. I don't know where does this argument come from. I think it's much harder to get to USA.

endisneigh 3y ago
I'm talking about citizenship. I'm not familiar with every single country's policies, but it's simply a fact that the USA is more accommodating to immigrants than Germany and France, for example. France for instance barely provides support for English speakers, god forbid any other country that speaks other languages. An immigrant who finds themselves in New York City, to contrast, will see that the city provides government assistance in dozens of languages and proof of address and things of that nature aren't even required.
- Gravityloss 3y ago
  Maybe some bigger countries have this expectation that most people talk their main language and movies are dubbed etc. Certainly also USA. Smaller countries this is not the case. For example in nordic countries you can get by quite fine with English.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]