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It has grown even faster in Eastern Europe (from a lower base of course). On the GDP change figure at PPP (second, at the right), Romania is off the chart. Als
by throw_pm23 3y ago
It has grown even faster in Eastern Europe (from a lower base of course). On the GDP change figure at PPP (second, at the right), Romania is off the chart.
Also, US is clearly able to be more productive overall, while Europe able to create a higher quality of life for a higher fraction of its population. Which of these facts will be sustained in the next decades remains to be seen.
- pharmakom 3y agoI’m not sure about that. Middle income America has cheaper housing, food and durables with higher wages than middle income in Western Europe. The very bottom of America is (of course) much worse off
- throw_pm23 3y agoSure in terms of purchasing power of the middle class I suspect you are right. More holistically, in terms of access to good healthcare, education, safety (both physical and financial), culture, free time, quality of the built environment, livable cities, general health level, etc. it seems to me Europe is better off than US.
- 4RealFreedom 3y agoYou really piqued my interest when I hit sports in your comment. Granted, I do not watch any sports. How do 'sports' translate into being 'better off'? I'm genuinely curious. Edit: did you change your comment or did I just misread it originally? I swear 'sports' was in there.
- throw_pm23 3y agoYes, sorry, I meant it under "general health" as in people playing sports in their free time.
- bjornasm 3y agoThe poster talked about a higher quality of life for a bigger fraction of the population, not higher purchasing power for the middle class.
- epgui 3y agoI hate conversational moving targets so much, because it shows people are quicker to speak than to listen.
- LeanderK 3y ago> Middle income America has cheaper housing, food and durables with higher wages than middle income in Western Europe. Is food really cheaper? That's not what I heard but I don't know. But that's a weird take. Quality of life is not entirely dominated by your purchase power if you have enough to sustain life. What about having time for culture, friends, family, quality of the environment, safety, access to healthcare etc. The only exception may be housing. Some cities here (in europe) have an absolutely incredible quality of life and I would never factor in the price of groceries because it doesn't matter. Everyone in the middle class can afford groceries. Housing maybe, in some cities it's a real issue, but I personally don't care as much because I don't really need an abundant apartment so I always find something. I want beautiful cafes just around the corner, vibrant, active culture from fine art to independent, small artists and beautiful parks and buildings. I would never trade it for a big car and a big house in some suburb. A friend of mine is working 32h a week and I am starting to think that he has figured out how to really improve his quality of live. On a programmers wage you're still middle class, you just earn so much. And he's travelling so much, meeting friends, getting into hobbies or just enjoying a really nice coffee in a cafe, taking in the beautiful autumn lights, while everyone else is working that you're always a but envious.
- FirmwareBurner 3y agoIn which country is your friend working?
- LeanderK 3y agogermany, but in a more mature startup and not an old, big company
- FirmwareBurner 3y agoCan I ask which city that is where your friend is enjoying life?
- tyjen 3y agoSpeaking from an American food perspective, my family avoids grocery stores and unhealthy processed foods. We receive almost all our food directly from farms and fishermen, the other products we buy wholesale from smaller companies that emphasize quality and lower added costs. For example, a 25 kg bag of oats for $60. We've substantially improved our quality of life and lowered our costs. Like with many areas within American society, the quality is there if you're willing to figure it out.
- calvinmorrison 3y agoyes but in Berlin cigarettes are 6EU, Beer is 2EU, and there's plenty of lottery. Just the right prices to keep the city bound, car-less proletariat happy
- FirmwareBurner 3y agoWhat good is cheap cigarettes and booze if you can't find a decent apartment? I only care about booze and cigarettes being cheap when I'm going on vacation/partying, but if I want to live somewhere long-term then the housing market is way more important.
- throw0101c 3y ago> Middle income America has cheaper housing, food and durables with higher wages than middle income in Western Europe. Any data on who reports higher levels of happiness and life satisfaction? > Taking this approach, Aristotle proposes that the highest good for humans is eudaimonia, a Greek word often translated as "flourishing" or sometimes "happiness". Aristotle argues that eudaimonia is a way of being in action (energeia)[14]: 230–251 that is appropriate to the human "soul" (psuchē) at its most "excellent" or virtuous (aretē). Eudaimonia is the most "complete" aim that people have, because they aim at for its own sake. An excellent human is one who is good at living life, who does so well and beautifully (kalos). Aristotle says such a person would also be a serious (spoudaios) human being. He also asserts that virtue for a human must involve reason in thought and speech (logos), as this is an aspect (an ergon, literally a task or work) of human living.[1]: I.7(1098a) * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicomachean_Ethics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicomachean_Ethics
- lars512 3y agoOverall self-reported life satisfaction seems comparable between Western Europe and the US, with the US sitting middle of the pack, and nordics reporting the highest life satisfaction. That suggests that some of the extra wealth effect in the US is balanced by social safety nets in Europe, when it comes to life satisfaction. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/happiness-cantril-ladder?tab=chart&country=USA~FRA~DEU~ESP~GBR~NOR~FIN~SWE~POL https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/happiness-cantril-ladder?... All of these countries are pretty wealthy in the scheme of things: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/gdp-vs-happiness https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/gdp-vs-happiness
- sam0x17 3y agoAmerican exceptionalism probably affects this quite a bit, I would imagine, in terms of biasing US residents to overestimate their own happiness because of a skewed understanding of what the rest of the world is like by contrast
- Calamitous 3y ago
- FredPret 3y ago> The very bottom of America is (of course) much worse off Are you sure? According to [1] (page 139), 36.4% of US adults have net worths between 100k an 1M, and 8.8% are millionaires. 26% are under 10k, 45.2% are over 100k. But 32.8% of Europeans are under 10k, and only 29.5% are between 100k and 1M, and only 2.7% over 1M. So 32.2% are over 100k. Median wealth for the US is 83k, and for Europe, it's 26k. (page 130). Looks like Europeans have a far larger proportion of poor people, and far smaller upper middle + millionaire class. [1] https://www.credit-suisse.com/media/assets/corporate/docs/about-us/research/publications/global-wealth-databook-2021.pdf https://www.credit-suisse.com/media/assets/corporate/docs/ab...
- throw_pm23 3y agoThis is all likely true, the claim was that Europe is far better at translating wealth into quality of life.
- FredPret 3y agoNot relevant. Even if Europeans are twice as good at turning a dollar into a smile (and how could anyone believe such nonsense), the middle-class American still has three times as much money. And either way, the problem to solve is creating the most overall wealth and well-being. Being better at a sub-problem (money->happiness efficiency ratio) is less important than overall effectiveness.
- eropple 3y ago"The middle-class American" is going to get bodied into penury if they get sick. A Dane will, generally speaking, not. I know I'd trade a very large portion of my very large salary for assurances that that wouldn't happen. I don't have the option, though.
- aceazzameen 3y agoVery relevant. Again, personal wealth does not equal quality of life. That's a very American thing, since the US lacks so many basic quality of life tenets that Europeans already have.
- dougmwne 3y agoI split my time between the US and Europe and I am quite sure low and middle income Europeans have it better. Quality of life is a pretty subtle thing to measure. It’s not directly tied to the number of square meters in your home or how many cheeseburgers you can buy with an hour’s wage. It has more to do with the amount of fear and deprivation in one’s life. With a strong social safety net, low crime, strong employee protections, universal healthcare, inexpensive higher ed, plentiful time off, and a culturally rich environment with high social cohesion, Europeans live contented lives and don’t spend much time thinking about doom scenarios like what if they get laid off, get sick, or become a victim. Certainly they are jealous of American’s big paychecks and cheap iPhones. The dark side of this is that wages and savings are quite low and the essentials take up most of people’s budgets, so something like the energy price shock can cause a lot of suffering. It’s sort of unthinkable in the US but lots of people sat in the cold last winter.
- WanderPanda 3y agoin the end the hedonic treadmill will smooth it out anyways
- globular-toast 3y agoIndeed. The hedonic treadmill kicks in once you reach a certain level a bit above poverty. A higher percentage of people are on the treadmill in Europe than in the US.
- ryanwaggoner 3y agoI associate the hedonic treadmill with a life of advertising-driven consumerism, and the US seems way ahead of Europe in that regard.
- globular-toast 3y agoIn my idea of the hedonic treadmill, one can be on the treadmill but slow it down or even switch it off and cease to run on it. More people in Europe are on the treadmill in the sense that they've maxed out their happiness, but they aren't necessarily running on it. Perhaps of the people who are on the treadmill, more people are actively running on it in the US, driven by the consumerism (essentially addiction) that you point out.
- dartos 3y agoIt’s hard to just say “America has cheaper” anything. It really depends on where you live. For instance it’s cheaper to live in Ohio than California.
- thefz 3y ago> America has cheaper housing, food and durables with higher wages than middle income in Western Europe But off the roof expenses for anything else, so in the end it evens out or even comes at an advantage for Europe.
- CuriouslyC 3y agoHousing is generally cheaper (or it was, the pandemic ruined a lot of markets), but when food is cheaper in the US it's mostly also much lower quality, Europeans often pay less for higher quality items. Durables are more expensive mostly because of taxes, which help pay for things like good health care and a social safety net.
- hotnfresh 3y agoI only have Paris as a sample (but aren’t big cities supposed to be high CoL?) but much of the good food at their grocery stores and market stalls seemed a hell of a lot cheaper than the same back in my “low CoL” American city. And often at higher quality than we had at any price. Dunno about junk food, maybe that was more expensive.
- throwaway6734 3y ago>Which of these will be sustained in the next decades remains to be seen. I imagine that Europe's demographic issues are going to force something needing to give on the QoL side of things.
- cmrdporcupine 3y agoEurope can (and does to some degree) solve this issue the same way we do here in Canada: high immigration rates. It has downsides, esp to the xenophobes, but in the long run, redistribution/migration of populations from the south -- where climate change is going to have the most serious impacts -- is just going to be part of life.
- Tade0 3y ago> Europe can (and does to some degree) solve this issue the same way we do here in Canada: high immigration rates. That worked great in the XX century, but the supply of potential immigrants from countries with a high(90%+) literacy rate is dwindling due to fertility rates falling below replacement in source countries. As it stands most such people currently reside in South East Asia. This is not a viable strategy for the next 20 years, let alone 50 years.
- endisneigh 3y agoI highly doubt western europe will open up their doors. It's already difficult to immigrant there now. Once pressed I imagine the opposite scenario. No way Europe can sustain immigration accessibility on the level of USA and still include all of the benefits.
- elzbardico 3y agoIt is hard if you are a qualified professional looking for work in your area, not if you are classified as a refugee.
- schnitzelstoat 3y ago
- kmlx 3y ago> Romania is off the chart. the base was extremely low.
- xyzelement 3y ago// while Europe able to create a higher quality of life for a higher fraction of its population. As a dual eu / us citizen that's not my observation. What do you base this on? An average American feels wealthier than an average European to me even comparing to just western Europe.
- Scarblac 3y agoQuality of life isn't the same as wealth though.
- 3seashells 3y agoIt is, I pay for social security, must not fear for my life, you pay for private security, fearing for your life caged in a gated community. On paper you are more wealthy but in the real world you are poorer in every aspect of life that matters.
- willcipriano 3y agoAmericans are allowed to own the tools they need to defend themselves so they don't need to hire anyone.
- hnbad 3y agoArguably the fact that you think owning a gun makes a practical difference in your own safety although a gun can not defend you against health issues or financial hardship (e.g. losing your job, interest/rent hikes) is a point against you.
- AnimalMuppet 3y agoHealth wasn't the (immediate) topic. Financial ruin wasn't the topic. So you're criticizing them for not replying to a point that wasn't the point under discussion, which seems rather unfair.
- brightball 3y agoI’ve worked with a lot of devs in Bulgaria over the last 5 years and been very impressed.
- em500 3y agoThe usually unstated question underlying these sorts of comparisons is basically: "where people are better off?". But that can never really be answered, because * Different people value different things: am I better or worse off when I live in a small apartment in a city and go everywhere by bike/bus while my children cycle to the local public school themselves vs owning a big house with a big garden and a big car, driving them to school every day? Even to what extend such different lifestyles are by choice or necessity are hard to tell. * Quality of life differences can be very different for different segments of the population (high vs low income, minorities, children, retirees, people with disabilities, etc). Is a country better or worse of when the QoL is a bit worse for a bottom quartile high school drop-out, but a bit better for a a top-quartile doctor, or a third quartile nurse or police officer? Such questions can't be answered, because they depend mostly on subjective weights.
- giraffe_lady 3y agoThose questions can all be answered though. In fact some of them conclusively have been.
- em500 3y agoThey can only be answered subjectively, because different people value different things. That's why such discussions usually end up with clusters of people with somewhat similar preferences arguing inconclusively with other clusters who do not share their preferences.
- giraffe_lady 3y agoYou're sitting here like "oh maybe it's better for all of us if some of us are miserable, it's subjective you know." Fucking ghoulish.
- hiatus 3y ago> In fact some of them conclusively have been. Don't leave us in suspense! Elaborate.
- 3y ago