4 ms·

Even after reading two articles about this, I don't understand the legal context. The guest seems to not have a contract for a long term stay. So how can they

by TekMol 3y ago

Even after reading two articles about this, I don't understand the legal context. The guest seems to not have a contract for a long term stay. So how can they have any protections that cater to real renters? Does this mean everybody who breaks into a house has those protections? What would happen if the owner evicted the guest via some private security firm? Would police help the guest to get back into the house? On which legal grounds?

freitzkriesler2 3y ago
> The guest seems to not have a contract for a long term stay. So how can they have any protections that cater to real renters? Airbnb provides a contract page that can be considered a rental document in the eyes of California regardless of length. > Does this mean everybody who breaks into a house has those protections? See point 1. California is a real life big rock candy mountain.
ethbr1 3y ago
Seriously. I'd say this doesn't make sense, but see LA and California. >> Because she stayed in the unit for six months, Hirschhorn qualified for L.A.'s recently adopted Just Cause Ordinance, which requires a landlord to have a legal reason to evict her But... >> Hirschhorn’s attorney told the Times that "she was not required to pay rent because the city had never approved the unit for occupancy and that its shower was constructed without a permit." So she's staying in an unlicensed rental unit, not paying, and yet entitled to renter protections?
- lesuorac 3y ago
  It'd be nice if anywhere would link to the actual legal fillings ... The previous article was saying that she had to pay the market rate and she considered the market rate for an unoccupaniable unit as 0$. That should fail in court imo; plenty of people rent storage spaces that are unoccupiable and those have costs > 0. I guess the 0$ is pretty critical to her side as you generally can't legal _not pay rent_. You can put the money into escrow (i.e. LA's REAP [1]) if the property is in violation of a housing ordinance. I'm still going with this was probably a slam dunk for him to evict her if he actually went to a lawyer in the first place instead of trying to placate her when he first started having problems. [1]: https://codelibrary.amlegal.com/codes/los_angeles/latest/lamc/0-0-0-197431 https://codelibrary.amlegal.com/codes/los_angeles/latest/lam...
robryk 3y ago
I don't know what the law in California is, but such provisions are not very rare. The reason for them is to deal with e.g. landlords that rent without a written contact, or various complicated fraudulent situations (subletting when that's not allowed, pretending to be a landlord, etc.). The premise behind them is that (a) depriving someone of a place to live should require a very high bar (b) property owners are expected to keep track of what's going on with their property. There's obviously abuse enabled by this, but the correct amount of renter-initiated abuse is not zero.
michaelt 3y ago
> The guest seems to not have a contract for a long term stay. According to [1] the tenant and landlord had agreed to a 187 night rental, with the tenant paying $20,793 - which has been paid. The landlord then agreed to an extension outside of AirBnB (which to be fair just sounds like him being a nice guy when she said she couldn't find a place to move to) and there were minor maintenance problems (which the landlord wanted to fix but the tenant wouldn't give him access). Also the rental property wasn't built or operated with the right permits. The tenant is also disabled (or at least claims to be). Apparently these factors have made it difficult to get an eviction order. The tenant does sound like a dick though. [1] https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-10-04/airbnb-guest-refuse-pay-leave-luxury-rental https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-10-04/airbnb-g...
indigo0086 3y ago
It's what happens when a society doesn't respect private property, or even recognize property as private, even though it's paid with incredibly taxed income by individuals. They believe private property is the right of others, so you have legal loopholes to squat on it.
lotsofpulp 3y ago
In many (all?) US states, after a customer stays a certain number of nights in a hotel, they become a “permanent resident” and the hotel has to go to court to evict them to have the police force them to leave. Hence, many hotel managers do not allow people to stay beyond the number of nights they qualifies the customer to become a permanent resident (30 nights in many US states).
kkielhofner 3y ago
It's yet another example of the weird issues Airbnb has... I've only rented via Airbnb a couple of times and this was a while ago. I gave up on it because of the (infamous) arbitrary host specific "check-in" process, ability for hosts to make all sorts of specific demands for the check-out process, application of random fees all over the place... Leave a towel in the wrong spot? Yeah that will be $100. Don't load the dishwasher properly? $100. Forget something in the fridge? $100. It never ends and obviously the "host" is incentivized to apply as many random fees and convoluted requirements as possible to trip people up and ensure they can basically shake their guests down for another substantial amount of fees which in some cases can be the equivalent of staying another day or even two. Then you get to end up in the also arbitrary Airbnb dispute process... Additionally, hosts are able to apply completely random and arbitrary demands for the entire guest stay. Oh, a pissed off neighbor that hates the fact someone put a property on Airbnb calls the police every time you walk through the hallway above a whisper? Sorry, not our problem even though the host is well aware of this because it's happened 10 times. It's not really price competitive and in the end you're essentially required to do a bunch of random chores to the individual host's specifications upon "check out" and then you get to worry about finding a bunch of random fees tacked on to your stay later. You're also often subject to a variety of host-specific requirements for what they deem acceptable/proper use of the property. There are plenty of horror stories around like hosts that don't drink alcohol attempting to impose their viewpoint on guests and say things like "no alcohol allowed". Makes for a nice, relaxing vacation! From what I understand this has gotten better but contrast this with hotels: as long as you don't destroy the room on check out you walk out of the property and never give it another thought. I think most people also have a fairly good idea of what constitutes acceptable/normal use and behavior when it comes to hotel rooms. When you step outside of this the worst that happens is someone from the hotel calls you or comes to the room, explains the situation, and gives you a warning and chance to rectify the situation immediately. Again, with Airbnb the host is incentivized to look for a reason to kick you out and you end up on the street with no (immediate) recourse. Note I'm not saying I'm some kind of nightmare guest in hotels or short term rentals but again, there are plenty of stories online where there are seemingly valid points from the perspective of the guest that result in all kinds of absurd situations. Back on topic, this is yet another fundamental problem with the short term rental/Airbnb approach. Anyone should have absolutely seen this coming. Real estate is an extremely complicated and region specific hodgepodge of state laws, municipality laws, sometimes even zoning, random regulations down to HOAs, condo boards, apartment property managers, etc. I'm not saying this is a good thing but it is the way things are and hotels are an established and well-oiled machine by comparison.
BGizzle 3y ago
In L.A. county, if you receive mail at the residential address or are staying there for more than three consecutive days, you're legally a tenant. So if the person breaks into a house when the owner is on vacation, stays there for a week and gets mail there, yes, the once-trespasser is a legal tenant. Seattle area is the same; makes it super easy to squat.

by TekMol 3y ago

freitzkriesler2 3y ago

> The guest seems to not have a contract for a long term stay. So how can they have any protections that cater to real renters? Airbnb provides a contract page that can be considered a rental document in the eyes of California regardless of length. > Does this mean everybody who breaks into a house has those protections? See point 1. California is a real life big rock candy mountain.

ethbr1 3y ago

Seriously. I'd say this doesn't make sense, but see LA and California. >> Because she stayed in the unit for six months, Hirschhorn qualified for L.A.'s recently adopted Just Cause Ordinance, which requires a landlord to have a legal reason to evict her But... >> Hirschhorn’s attorney told the Times that "she was not required to pay rent because the city had never approved the unit for occupancy and that its shower was constructed without a permit." So she's staying in an unlicensed rental unit, not paying, and yet entitled to renter protections?

lesuorac 3y ago
It'd be nice if anywhere would link to the actual legal fillings ... The previous article was saying that she had to pay the market rate and she considered the market rate for an unoccupaniable unit as 0$. That should fail in court imo; plenty of people rent storage spaces that are unoccupiable and those have costs > 0. I guess the 0$ is pretty critical to her side as you generally can't legal _not pay rent_. You can put the money into escrow (i.e. LA's REAP [1]) if the property is in violation of a housing ordinance. I'm still going with this was probably a slam dunk for him to evict her if he actually went to a lawyer in the first place instead of trying to placate her when he first started having problems. [1]: https://codelibrary.amlegal.com/codes/los_angeles/latest/lamc/0-0-0-197431 https://codelibrary.amlegal.com/codes/los_angeles/latest/lam...

robryk 3y ago

I don't know what the law in California is, but such provisions are not very rare. The reason for them is to deal with e.g. landlords that rent without a written contact, or various complicated fraudulent situations (subletting when that's not allowed, pretending to be a landlord, etc.). The premise behind them is that (a) depriving someone of a place to live should require a very high bar (b) property owners are expected to keep track of what's going on with their property. There's obviously abuse enabled by this, but the correct amount of renter-initiated abuse is not zero.

michaelt 3y ago

> The guest seems to not have a contract for a long term stay. According to [1] the tenant and landlord had agreed to a 187 night rental, with the tenant paying $20,793 - which has been paid. The landlord then agreed to an extension outside of AirBnB (which to be fair just sounds like him being a nice guy when she said she couldn't find a place to move to) and there were minor maintenance problems (which the landlord wanted to fix but the tenant wouldn't give him access). Also the rental property wasn't built or operated with the right permits. The tenant is also disabled (or at least claims to be). Apparently these factors have made it difficult to get an eviction order. The tenant does sound like a dick though. [1] https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-10-04/airbnb-guest-refuse-pay-leave-luxury-rental https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-10-04/airbnb-g...

indigo0086 3y ago

It's what happens when a society doesn't respect private property, or even recognize property as private, even though it's paid with incredibly taxed income by individuals. They believe private property is the right of others, so you have legal loopholes to squat on it.

lotsofpulp 3y ago

In many (all?) US states, after a customer stays a certain number of nights in a hotel, they become a “permanent resident” and the hotel has to go to court to evict them to have the police force them to leave. Hence, many hotel managers do not allow people to stay beyond the number of nights they qualifies the customer to become a permanent resident (30 nights in many US states).

kkielhofner 3y ago

It's yet another example of the weird issues Airbnb has... I've only rented via Airbnb a couple of times and this was a while ago. I gave up on it because of the (infamous) arbitrary host specific "check-in" process, ability for hosts to make all sorts of specific demands for the check-out process, application of random fees all over the place... Leave a towel in the wrong spot? Yeah that will be $100. Don't load the dishwasher properly? $100. Forget something in the fridge? $100. It never ends and obviously the "host" is incentivized to apply as many random fees and convoluted requirements as possible to trip people up and ensure they can basically shake their guests down for another substantial amount of fees which in some cases can be the equivalent of staying another day or even two. Then you get to end up in the also arbitrary Airbnb dispute process... Additionally, hosts are able to apply completely random and arbitrary demands for the entire guest stay. Oh, a pissed off neighbor that hates the fact someone put a property on Airbnb calls the police every time you walk through the hallway above a whisper? Sorry, not our problem even though the host is well aware of this because it's happened 10 times. It's not really price competitive and in the end you're essentially required to do a bunch of random chores to the individual host's specifications upon "check out" and then you get to worry about finding a bunch of random fees tacked on to your stay later. You're also often subject to a variety of host-specific requirements for what they deem acceptable/proper use of the property. There are plenty of horror stories around like hosts that don't drink alcohol attempting to impose their viewpoint on guests and say things like "no alcohol allowed". Makes for a nice, relaxing vacation! From what I understand this has gotten better but contrast this with hotels: as long as you don't destroy the room on check out you walk out of the property and never give it another thought. I think most people also have a fairly good idea of what constitutes acceptable/normal use and behavior when it comes to hotel rooms. When you step outside of this the worst that happens is someone from the hotel calls you or comes to the room, explains the situation, and gives you a warning and chance to rectify the situation immediately. Again, with Airbnb the host is incentivized to look for a reason to kick you out and you end up on the street with no (immediate) recourse. Note I'm not saying I'm some kind of nightmare guest in hotels or short term rentals but again, there are plenty of stories online where there are seemingly valid points from the perspective of the guest that result in all kinds of absurd situations. Back on topic, this is yet another fundamental problem with the short term rental/Airbnb approach. Anyone should have absolutely seen this coming. Real estate is an extremely complicated and region specific hodgepodge of state laws, municipality laws, sometimes even zoning, random regulations down to HOAs, condo boards, apartment property managers, etc. I'm not saying this is a good thing but it is the way things are and hotels are an established and well-oiled machine by comparison.

BGizzle 3y ago

In L.A. county, if you receive mail at the residential address or are staying there for more than three consecutive days, you're legally a tenant. So if the person breaks into a house when the owner is on vacation, stays there for a week and gets mail there, yes, the once-trespasser is a legal tenant. Seattle area is the same; makes it super easy to squat.