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I feel the Nobel prize was less for fighting for women's rights, and more for fighting against an anti-American, anti-Western government. For some reason, I don

I feel the Nobel prize was less for fighting for women's rights, and more for fighting against an anti-American, anti-Western government. For some reason, I don't see the award ever going to a rights activist fighting against the Saudi, Pakistani, or any other American-allied regimes. I of course don't ever see it going to someone fighting against the American regime itself, and its mass surveillance and war crimes, such as Edward Snowden or Julian Assange, or Chelsea Manning.

bohadi 3y ago
ye prestige award is a political football now. same as it ever was?
wheelerof4te 3y ago
[flagged]
- zadler 3y ago
  The light from the Overton window is less every day…
- nicce 3y ago
  It is very difficult to think these matters in rational and neutral way. Everyone has a side and if you talk against your own ”side”, you get cancelled. While, for example, the above is quite obvious if you know how politics and power work. Everyone likes to stay as ”a good guy”, but it is impossible to have and maintain power by being just a good guy. Many nations try to keep a specific narrative and most believe on it because they don’t like the alternative, as it would make many arguments hypocrite.
- subjectsigma 3y ago
  > I feel > I don’t see Interpreting world events based on your own biased viewpoints and emotions and then making mostly unsupported predictions is not exactly rational
csmpltn 3y ago
The Nobel prize is awarded by a committee of (largely) Judeo-Christian westerners, in a western country. Equivalent awards given out by dictatorships or theocracies around the world can be just as easily seen through the same lens of hypocrisy and cynicism.
- eunos 3y ago
  *Swedish Much more specific
  - astura 3y ago
    No, The Peace prize, specifically, is awarded by the The Norwegian Nobel Committee in Oslo. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Nobel_Committee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Nobel_Committee
  - sahlab 3y ago
    The Nobel peace prize is awarded by a Norwegian committee. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Nobel_Committee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Nobel_Committee
- wslh 3y ago
  I am courious: could you name the committee members? [1] I am sure they are westerners, not clear about if the "Judeo-Christian" claim is very precise [0] Obviously there is a bias in the awards, but is there a way to not be biased? Also, there is space to create better Nobel prizes for sure so blaming Nobel prize is in a way linked to the world incapacity to promote something better? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Christian?wprov=sfti1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Christian?wprov=sfti1 [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Nobel_Committee?wprov=sfti1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Nobel_Committee?wpro...
- krmboya 3y ago
  Can the West still be characterized as Judeo-christian? Western culture seems largely liberal at this point with the more religious people being lumped to the right wing. It is said many churches/cathedrals in Europe are now appreciated more for their historical value than as places of worship
csomar 3y ago
The Nobel peace prize is a joke. I think, at this point, everyone knows that. They should have called it something else, so not to devalue the other Nobel prizes. But then it'd not be as catchy.
g232089 3y ago
That the Nobel Peace Prize is not a serious award should have been evident when Obama won it.
- willcipriano 3y ago
  2 wars when he was sworn in, 7 when he left. I'm pretty sure he is the peace prize recipient who started the most wars.
  - perihelions 3y ago
    - "I'm pretty sure he is the peace prize recipient who started the most wars" Henry Kissinger, 1973? edit: I think Wilson (1919 Nobel; 1913-1921 presidency) is also a contender, if anyone has the patience/stamina to count all his conflicts and classify them. (I.e. what counts as "starting a war" and what's better described as a continuation of an existing conflict). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidency_of_Woodrow_Wilson#Foreign_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidency_of_Woodrow_Wilson#F... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_Wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_Wars
    - willcipriano 3y ago
      If we go off the war crimes outlined in Hitchen's "The Trial of Henry Kissinger" > Hitchens presents Kissinger's involvement in a series of alleged war crimes in Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Bangladesh, Chile, Cyprus and East Timor. They are tied for the record for number of nations they committed war crimes in. Although if you include CIA backed coups I think Obama pulls ahead.
    - srean 3y ago
      I'd kill for a Nobel Peace Prize -- Steven Wright
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - catlover76 3y ago
    At the risk of further encouraging you to think that there is validity to anything you regurgitate, what do you think were the "7 wars"? And how did Obama "start" them?
LindeBuzoGray 3y ago
Also Iran in 1953 had a prime Minister Mosaddegh, who wanted to nationalize Iran's oil. The UK (and US) sought the support of right-wing mullahs, then overthrew the prime minister and replaced him with a dictator. Then the CIA helped SAVAK kill off the secular left for the next few decades. Eventually even the right-wing clerics and bazaari grew tired of foreign interference and threw the western powers out.
- tibbydudeza 3y ago
  Or Chile where they overthrew an elected communist govt and they got Pinochet and the disappeared. But I am grateful for them helping Ukraine even if it for their own geopolitical goals.
  - sacrosancty 3y ago
    [dead]
  - Luctct 3y ago
    Allende was destroying Chile. The Chilean military had the good sense of putting an end to it.
    - tibbydudeza 3y ago
      But he was elected good or bad policies it was up to the voters to decide - the CIA/US supported coup bought in a military dictator who had people dropped into the sea and lakes from aircraft. How about the mothers still today protesting about their sons/daughters who disappeared (1,248).
- bnralt 3y ago
  > Also Iran in 1953 had a prime Minister Mosaddegh, who wanted to nationalize Iran's oil. Iranian oil was nationalized; in 1951 the National Iranian Oil Company took control, and retained it even after Mossadegh’s ouster (even up to today). > The UK (and US) sought the support of right-wing mullahs, then overthrew the prime minister and replaced him with a dictator. First, by this point in time Mossadegh had dissolved parliament and was ruling by fiat based on a rigged plebiscite (he claimed that 99.9% of Iranians had voted to give him control of the country[1]). Second, he wasn’t replaced with a dictator. The Shah had been in power since the Soviet Union and the U.K. had forced his father to abdicate over a decade before, and had been in a power struggle with the Majlis for quite some time by that point. > Eventually even the right-wing clerics and bazaari grew tired of foreign interference and threw the western powers out. The Shah was (mostly) friendly with the West, but he was hardly a puppet. He was the one who got OPEC to double their prices during the 1973 oil crisis, which hit the West pretty hard. Here's how PBS put it[2]: > The final blow came in December when the Shah of Iran, ostensibly a U.S. ally, took advantage of American impotence and persuaded the rest of the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) to more than double the price of a barrel of oil from $5.11 to $11.65. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/1953/08/04/archives/mossadegh-gets-999-of-the-vote-in-iran-plebiscite-on-majlis-ouster.html https://www.nytimes.com/1953/08/04/archives/mossadegh-gets-9... [2] http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/tehranbureau/2012/06/a-tale-of-two-oil-shocks-part-1-1973-76.html http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/tehranbureau/2012/06...
nine_k 3y ago
I wonder.why a Peace Prize should ever go to anyone for fighting, even if the fighting is for a patently just cause. There should be a different prize, or at least a different name for it. But this ship has sailed, apparently. OTOH it's really understandable that many people value fighting for a just cause higher than peace. The easiest way to peace is often to just surrender, and have peace on the terms of an evil aggressor. But it's not a kind of peace many people prefer to live in.
- sim7c00 3y ago
  you are right. people fight for peace, fight for freedom, whatever. People do not understand what is peace. There is only very few places in the world (1 where I know of, by chance) that actually study, what is peace. culture of peace. Peace is known not to be simply the absence of war, and so, trying to remove war isn't neccesarily moving towards peace or a culture of peace, while many things which do not remove violence, can still be considered contributions (very great ones) to peace. imho the nobel peace prize should take into account what is peace, not just focus on the absence of war. this is an outdated idea. Polemology vs. Irenology. There are so many people contributing greatly to peace who are invisible. only the ones 'fighting against war' are made visible. and with those, like other commentors suggest, its often simply an opinion. one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter, and one mans soldier is anothers terrorist... they are all fighting, killing or destroying (destruction can be non-physical here). it should atleast be a nobel anti-war prize or something. not a peace prize. it doesn't do justice to the many people contributing actively to a culture of peace in one way or another.
  - csmpltn 3y ago
    > "There is only very few places in the world (1 where I know of, by chance) that actually study, what is peace" Where would that be?
- AnimalMuppet 3y ago
  "The Nobel Prize For Doing Nothing In The Face Of An Oppressor And Calling That Peace" has far too many candidates for them to be able to pick a winner.
sneak 3y ago
They gave the Nobel Peace Prize to a US president who had ordered so many drone strikes that even by the US's own admission, hundreds of children were slaughtered. It's pretty farcical.
- 0xDEF 3y ago
  >even by the US's own admission, hundreds of children were slaughtered Did the US really admit that or was it something that was exposed by NGOs and investigators?
  - shmde 3y ago
    Head of the country Barack Obama literally apologized for bombing the Kunduz hospital ? Will anything change if they admitted to or not ?
- wizerdrobe 3y ago
  By virtue of the President’s role of Commander in Chief and that Doctor’s Without Borders as an organization has received the prize, it can be said that this President is the first to bomb another Nobel recipient after an attack on a MSF hospital. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunduz_hospital_airstrike https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunduz_hospital_airstrike
  - imjonse 3y ago
    While literary Nobel prize winners may have their feuds, peace prize winners' disagreements can get much more serious.
  - zarzavat 3y ago
    > On 7 October 2015, President Barack Obama issued an apology and announced the United States would be making condolence payments of $6,000 to the families of those killed in the airstrike Literally adding insult to injury. No wonder the US kills so many foreigners if it only values them at six thousand dollars a piece.
- voisin 3y ago
bluish29 3y ago
My favorite Nobel peace prize goes to Abiy Ahmed who was awarded 2019 prize. He went to Sweden took the prize, deliver a speech then a couple of months later he went on a streak of atrocious in Ethiopia [1]. You name it ( mass killing, rape, genocide..etc). Also take into consideration that any head of state, prime minister or cabinet member in any government can nominate people for the prize (A lot of other people can do that too)[2] . So it would be always interesting to know who our governments officials nominated over time [1] https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2023/07/09/war-crimes-in-tigray-may-be-covered-up-or-forgotten https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2023/07/09/... [2] https://www.nobelprize.org/nomination/peace/ https://www.nobelprize.org/nomination/peace/
- sorenjan 3y ago
  The peace prize is awarded in Norway.
- alephnerd 3y ago
  > He went to Sweden took the prize Norway > So it would be always interesting to know who our governments officials nominated over time There's a list of nominees [0]. The Pakistani Senate nominated Erdogan for this year's prize, for example [0]. That said, most nominations seem to be done by Norwegian MPs trying to message to their own constituents (eg. Abiy's nomination and the large Ethiopian diaspora voting bloc in Norway and Sweden) [1] [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Nobel_Peace_Prize https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Nobel_Peace_Prize [1] - https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/15/world/africa/ethiopia-abiy-ahmed-nobel-war.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/15/world/africa/ethiopia-abi...
tonmoy 3y ago
There have been some “anti-western” Nobel peace prize awards in the recent past. I think Saudi Arab was not happy about 2011 Nobel peace prize winner for example. While Snowden and Assange have done great things, they are not exactly in line with the human rights activism type activities rewarded by the committee.
- mc32 3y ago
  The peace prize should be about people who promote peace or bring about peace. Snowden exposed civil rights violations and constitutional violations but I wouldn’t say it contributed to the avoidance of war or conflict. This should not be about “activism” but about political stabilization and the promotion of peace.
fauigerzigerk 3y ago
>For some reason, I don't see the award ever going to a rights activist fighting against the Saudi, Pakistani, or any other American-allied regimes. There have been a few, such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasser_Arafat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasser_Arafat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Mandela https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Mandela https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Ressa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Ressa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigoberta_Mench%C3%BA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigoberta_Mench%C3%BA
- imjonse 3y ago
  To be fair, Mandela did not get it while imprisoned and while the US and the UK were tacit supporters of the Apartheid regime. And Maria Ressa seems anti-Duterte, and pro-US if I read correctly.
  - LindeBuzoGray 3y ago
    Right, Mandela got it when he was being conciliatory to the government and its Western support, with other ANC elements being less so. The same with Arafat - he was conciliatory to Israel and its western support at Oslo, with Hamas and the PFLP being less so. Both were not fighting when.they got the prize, but being conciliatory.
    - fauigerzigerk 3y ago
      I don't agree that Arafat was fighting any less than Narges Mohammadi when he got the Nobel Peace Prize. He didn't get the prize for surrendering (neither did Mandela but he got the prize after he had already won).
  - fauigerzigerk 3y ago
    >Mandela did not get it while imprisoned and while the US and the UK were tacit supporters of the Apartheid regime True >Maria Ressa seems anti-Duterte, and pro-US if I read correctly Duterte is/was a Trump style figure in a country that houses U.S military bases. If Pakistan counts then the Philippines must count as well.
imjonse 3y ago
Lê_Đức_Thọ, who fought the US in Vietnam, got it in 1973 (together with Kissinger) and promptly refused it. Maybe the Nobel committee does not want to be embarrassed by a refusal again, and that is the only reason it no longer awards it to anti-western activists :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%AA_%C4%90%E1%BB%A9c_Th%E1%BB%8D https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%AA_%C4%90%E1%BB%A9c_Th%E1...
- funnyflywheel 3y ago
  Thanks for the reminder that Heinz (Henry) Kissinger is still alive at age 100.
- bt4u 3y ago
  [dead]
lettergram 3y ago
To be fair, Obama was granted a Nobel peace prize almost as soon as he got in office (just for being in office)… it was also right before continuing the drone assassination campaign, including the extra judicial killing of US citizens without trial https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Abdulrahman_al-Awlaki https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Abdulrahman_al-Aw... I’ve always views the Nobel peace prize as a political body. Designed to highlight and reward people of a certain persuasion.
bnralt 3y ago
ElBaradei won in 2005, when he was a vocal opponent of Bush's military interventions (Obama's prize in 2009 was likewise mainly a rebuke of Bush). Tawakkol Karman (2011) has been a vocal critic of Saudi Arabia. Willy Brandt received his prize specifically for increasing ties with the Eastern Bloc. In terms of prizes giving for those working against particular regimes, anti-apartheid activists have received the most (1960, 1984, 1993). A lot of people end up making assumptions based on their own personal biases.
- muniq 3y ago
  Gandhi - whose name has become synonymous with peace and non-violence - was nominated 3 times but didn't win. The evidence strongly suggests that the Nobel committee doesn't like giving the prize against anti-western dissidents until they absolutely have to, i.e. when not giving the prize would raise more eyebrows and damage the Nobel's reputation. The two anti-western dissidents that come to mind are Nelson Mandela and (arguably) Martin Luther King. Again, they received the prize after achieving global fame and recognition. ElBaradei won the prize for his work in the IAEA (whose primary focus has been on non-western nations) -not for his opposition to the Iraq war - whose primary focus has been on non-western nations. Tawakkol Karman (2011) is another dissident against a non-western country. Willy Brandt wasn't a dissident of the West. Far from it in fact - known for fierce anti-communist domestic policies , support for right-wing governments, the Vietnam war and for promoting greater European and western integration. Nobel prizes given to anti-apartheid South African activists seem to be a laudable counter-example to the rule though.
  - bnralt 3y ago
    > The two anti-western dissidents that come to mind are Nelson Mandela and (arguably) Martin Luther King. Again, they received the prize after achieving global fame and recognition. Seems like a “no true Scotsman” argument. Naturally, the winners are going to often be prominent individuals. > Tawakkol Karman (2011) is another dissident against a non-western country. The previous poster specifically said “I don't see the award ever going to a rights activist fighting against the Saudi, Pakistani, or any other American-allied regimes,” so I brought up a recent activist that has been against the Saudi government (and I guess Malala Yousafzai could be viewed as critical of many parts of the Pakistani government). > ElBaradei won the prize for his work in the IAEA (whose primary focus has been on non-western nations) -not for his opposition to the Iraq war - whose primary focus has been on non-western nations. It was pretty obvious to everyone at the time that this (as well as Obama’s prize) was a direct rebuke against Bush’s foreign policy. Here’s the opening paragraph of the New York Times article about his award[1]: > The Nobel Peace Prize was awarded Friday to the International Atomic Energy Agency and its chief, Mohamed ElBaradei, whom the Bush administration tried but failed to remove from his job just months ago. > The award was a vindication of a man and an agency long at odds with President Bush and his administration over how to confront Iraq and Iran. It could strengthen the agency's position as conflicts loom over preventing Iran from obtaining fuel it could use for nuclear weapons and disarming North Korea. > For most of the last year, the Bush administration had tried to block Dr. ElBaradei from assuming a third term as chief of the agency, a part of the United Nations, arguing that he would not be strong enough to face down Iran and the covert nuclear weapons program it is suspected of having. But the United States had no support from any of its allies, and ultimately had to withdraw its objections to Dr. ElBaradei's reappointment. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/08/front%20page/world/atomic-agency-and-chief-win-the-peace-prize.html https://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/08/front%20page/world/atomic...
trimethylpurine 3y ago
This is because civil rights are a Western ideology. They certainly didn't come from ISIS' views on women. Nor from Russia and China, who supported them. Snowden defected to Russia, see above about supporting ISIS. Assange and Manning's exposure literally cost the lives of Afghan families who were working against AQ, another regime that openly oppresses its people's civil rights. I think you might need to have a hard look at what you think peace is. So far, the most civil rights a person can experience is under Western governance, flawed as it is.
- user3939382 3y ago
  > Snowden defected to Russia To add context, Snowden became trapped in Russia when the US State Department decided to cancel his passport while he was at an airport there on the way out of Russia. > Assange and Manning's exposure literally cost the lives of Afghan families Exposure like the footage they revealed of US drones killing innocent civilians? > The U.S. post-9/11 wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Syria, and Pakistan have taken a tremendous human toll on those countries. As of September 2021, an estimated 432,093 civilians in these countries have died violent deaths as a result of the wars. Right, Assange is the problem, not the US military operations he exposed.
  - trimethylpurine 3y ago
    >Right, Assange is the problem, not the US military operations he exposed. It's only clear that civilians were intentionally targeted by ISIS and AQ. It's also true that civilians who opposed Western military forces were killed. That's expected, because opposing a military force is an official enlistment. Assange is the problem. You don't get a peace prize for aiding in civil rights oppression.
  - nobodynobody 3y ago
    [flagged]
- AnonCoward42 3y ago
  > This is because civil rights are a Western ideology. They certainly didn't come from ISIS' views on women. Nor from Russia and China, who supported them. How do you come to the conclusion that Russia and China support ISIS?
pastor_bob 3y ago
>Edward Snowden You mean the guy who has sworn allegiance to Putin and takes an anti-Ukraine stance on Twitter to save his neck? A guy who has made millions peddling 'his story' and lives a life of luxury in Moscow? Yeah, surely he should get a Nobel prize
alephnerd 3y ago
> more for fighting against an anti-American, anti-Western government "[t]he recipient is selected by the Norwegian Nobel Committee, a five-member committee appointed by the Parliament of Norway. Since 2020 the prize is awarded in the Atrium of the University of Oslo" [0] The winners are basically selected by a subset of retired Norwegian MPs, and even Alfred Nobel's living heir has become opposed to the politicization of the Nobel Peace Price [1]. So it's reflecting the values of a subset of the Norwegian elite The comment above should NOT be viewed as a rejection of Narges Mohammadi's work. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_Peace_Prize https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_Peace_Prize [1] - https://www.aftenposten.no/meninger/i/wP6y1/i-strid-med-nobels-vilje https://www.aftenposten.no/meninger/i/wP6y1/i-strid-med-nobe...
Theodores 3y ago
If I remember correctly, Saudi Arabia and Iran struck a peace deal this year, brokered with Chinese help. We haven't heard about Yemen since. Surely Xi Jinping, MBS and Khamenei deserve the award for actual peace? Yeah, that is three people we are told to hate. But they achieved actual peace. Instead we get this Iranian woman that nobody had heard of before today. Something is not right.
- alephnerd 3y ago
  > Saudi Arabia and Iran struck a peace deal this year, brokered with Chinese help. It wasn't a peace deal - it was a normalization of relations (aka they've reestablished diplomatic contact) [0]. Iranian and Saudi proxies are still killing each other in Syria and Iraq. > We haven't heard about Yemen since. That's because of Oman acting as a mediator between the Houthis and Saudis [1] [0] - https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/06/12/saudi-iran-rapprochement-normalization-deal-china-de-escalation-yemen-syria/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/06/12/saudi-iran-rapprochemen... [1] - https://www.cfr.org/global-conflict-tracker/conflict/war-yemen https://www.cfr.org/global-conflict-tracker/conflict/war-yem...
dragonwriter 3y ago
> For some reason, I don't see the award ever going to a rights activist fighting against the Saudi, Pakistani, or any other American-allied regimes Rigoberta Menchú (awarded 1992) was an activist against the abuses of US allied regime, which abuses were aligned with and arguably a manifestation of US geopolitical priorities, and the Rev. Dr. King (awarded 1964) was an activist against the abuses of the American regime itself.
rsynnott 3y ago
> I of course don't ever see it going to someone fighting against the American regime itself Martin Luther King Jr got one.
77pt77 3y ago
My personal favorite is still Henry Kissinger, alive and well at 100 years old.

bohadi 3y ago

ye prestige award is a political football now. same as it ever was?

wheelerof4te 3y ago

[flagged]

zadler 3y ago
The light from the Overton window is less every day…
nicce 3y ago
It is very difficult to think these matters in rational and neutral way. Everyone has a side and if you talk against your own ”side”, you get cancelled. While, for example, the above is quite obvious if you know how politics and power work. Everyone likes to stay as ”a good guy”, but it is impossible to have and maintain power by being just a good guy. Many nations try to keep a specific narrative and most believe on it because they don’t like the alternative, as it would make many arguments hypocrite.
subjectsigma 3y ago
> I feel > I don’t see Interpreting world events based on your own biased viewpoints and emotions and then making mostly unsupported predictions is not exactly rational

csmpltn 3y ago

The Nobel prize is awarded by a committee of (largely) Judeo-Christian westerners, in a western country. Equivalent awards given out by dictatorships or theocracies around the world can be just as easily seen through the same lens of hypocrisy and cynicism.

eunos 3y ago
*Swedish Much more specific
- astura 3y ago
  No, The Peace prize, specifically, is awarded by the The Norwegian Nobel Committee in Oslo. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Nobel_Committee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Nobel_Committee
- sahlab 3y ago
  The Nobel peace prize is awarded by a Norwegian committee. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Nobel_Committee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Nobel_Committee
wslh 3y ago
I am courious: could you name the committee members? [1] I am sure they are westerners, not clear about if the "Judeo-Christian" claim is very precise [0] Obviously there is a bias in the awards, but is there a way to not be biased? Also, there is space to create better Nobel prizes for sure so blaming Nobel prize is in a way linked to the world incapacity to promote something better? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Christian?wprov=sfti1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Christian?wprov=sfti1 [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Nobel_Committee?wprov=sfti1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Nobel_Committee?wpro...
krmboya 3y ago
Can the West still be characterized as Judeo-christian? Western culture seems largely liberal at this point with the more religious people being lumped to the right wing. It is said many churches/cathedrals in Europe are now appreciated more for their historical value than as places of worship

csomar 3y ago

The Nobel peace prize is a joke. I think, at this point, everyone knows that. They should have called it something else, so not to devalue the other Nobel prizes. But then it'd not be as catchy.

g232089 3y ago

That the Nobel Peace Prize is not a serious award should have been evident when Obama won it.

willcipriano 3y ago
2 wars when he was sworn in, 7 when he left. I'm pretty sure he is the peace prize recipient who started the most wars.
- perihelions 3y ago
  - "I'm pretty sure he is the peace prize recipient who started the most wars" Henry Kissinger, 1973? edit: I think Wilson (1919 Nobel; 1913-1921 presidency) is also a contender, if anyone has the patience/stamina to count all his conflicts and classify them. (I.e. what counts as "starting a war" and what's better described as a continuation of an existing conflict). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidency_of_Woodrow_Wilson#Foreign_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidency_of_Woodrow_Wilson#F... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_Wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_Wars
  - willcipriano 3y ago
    If we go off the war crimes outlined in Hitchen's "The Trial of Henry Kissinger" > Hitchens presents Kissinger's involvement in a series of alleged war crimes in Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Bangladesh, Chile, Cyprus and East Timor. They are tied for the record for number of nations they committed war crimes in. Although if you include CIA backed coups I think Obama pulls ahead.
  - srean 3y ago
    I'd kill for a Nobel Peace Prize -- Steven Wright
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- catlover76 3y ago
  At the risk of further encouraging you to think that there is validity to anything you regurgitate, what do you think were the "7 wars"? And how did Obama "start" them?

LindeBuzoGray 3y ago

Also Iran in 1953 had a prime Minister Mosaddegh, who wanted to nationalize Iran's oil. The UK (and US) sought the support of right-wing mullahs, then overthrew the prime minister and replaced him with a dictator. Then the CIA helped SAVAK kill off the secular left for the next few decades. Eventually even the right-wing clerics and bazaari grew tired of foreign interference and threw the western powers out.

tibbydudeza 3y ago
Or Chile where they overthrew an elected communist govt and they got Pinochet and the disappeared. But I am grateful for them helping Ukraine even if it for their own geopolitical goals.
- sacrosancty 3y ago
  [dead]
- Luctct 3y ago
  Allende was destroying Chile. The Chilean military had the good sense of putting an end to it.
  - tibbydudeza 3y ago
    But he was elected good or bad policies it was up to the voters to decide - the CIA/US supported coup bought in a military dictator who had people dropped into the sea and lakes from aircraft. How about the mothers still today protesting about their sons/daughters who disappeared (1,248).
bnralt 3y ago
> Also Iran in 1953 had a prime Minister Mosaddegh, who wanted to nationalize Iran's oil. Iranian oil was nationalized; in 1951 the National Iranian Oil Company took control, and retained it even after Mossadegh’s ouster (even up to today). > The UK (and US) sought the support of right-wing mullahs, then overthrew the prime minister and replaced him with a dictator. First, by this point in time Mossadegh had dissolved parliament and was ruling by fiat based on a rigged plebiscite (he claimed that 99.9% of Iranians had voted to give him control of the country[1]). Second, he wasn’t replaced with a dictator. The Shah had been in power since the Soviet Union and the U.K. had forced his father to abdicate over a decade before, and had been in a power struggle with the Majlis for quite some time by that point. > Eventually even the right-wing clerics and bazaari grew tired of foreign interference and threw the western powers out. The Shah was (mostly) friendly with the West, but he was hardly a puppet. He was the one who got OPEC to double their prices during the 1973 oil crisis, which hit the West pretty hard. Here's how PBS put it[2]: > The final blow came in December when the Shah of Iran, ostensibly a U.S. ally, took advantage of American impotence and persuaded the rest of the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) to more than double the price of a barrel of oil from $5.11 to $11.65. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/1953/08/04/archives/mossadegh-gets-999-of-the-vote-in-iran-plebiscite-on-majlis-ouster.html https://www.nytimes.com/1953/08/04/archives/mossadegh-gets-9... [2] http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/tehranbureau/2012/06/a-tale-of-two-oil-shocks-part-1-1973-76.html http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/tehranbureau/2012/06...

nine_k 3y ago

I wonder.why a Peace Prize should ever go to anyone for fighting, even if the fighting is for a patently just cause. There should be a different prize, or at least a different name for it. But this ship has sailed, apparently. OTOH it's really understandable that many people value fighting for a just cause higher than peace. The easiest way to peace is often to just surrender, and have peace on the terms of an evil aggressor. But it's not a kind of peace many people prefer to live in.

sim7c00 3y ago
you are right. people fight for peace, fight for freedom, whatever. People do not understand what is peace. There is only very few places in the world (1 where I know of, by chance) that actually study, what is peace. culture of peace. Peace is known not to be simply the absence of war, and so, trying to remove war isn't neccesarily moving towards peace or a culture of peace, while many things which do not remove violence, can still be considered contributions (very great ones) to peace. imho the nobel peace prize should take into account what is peace, not just focus on the absence of war. this is an outdated idea. Polemology vs. Irenology. There are so many people contributing greatly to peace who are invisible. only the ones 'fighting against war' are made visible. and with those, like other commentors suggest, its often simply an opinion. one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter, and one mans soldier is anothers terrorist... they are all fighting, killing or destroying (destruction can be non-physical here). it should atleast be a nobel anti-war prize or something. not a peace prize. it doesn't do justice to the many people contributing actively to a culture of peace in one way or another.
- csmpltn 3y ago
  > "There is only very few places in the world (1 where I know of, by chance) that actually study, what is peace" Where would that be?
AnimalMuppet 3y ago
"The Nobel Prize For Doing Nothing In The Face Of An Oppressor And Calling That Peace" has far too many candidates for them to be able to pick a winner.

sneak 3y ago

They gave the Nobel Peace Prize to a US president who had ordered so many drone strikes that even by the US's own admission, hundreds of children were slaughtered. It's pretty farcical.

0xDEF 3y ago
>even by the US's own admission, hundreds of children were slaughtered Did the US really admit that or was it something that was exposed by NGOs and investigators?
- shmde 3y ago
  Head of the country Barack Obama literally apologized for bombing the Kunduz hospital ? Will anything change if they admitted to or not ?
wizerdrobe 3y ago
By virtue of the President’s role of Commander in Chief and that Doctor’s Without Borders as an organization has received the prize, it can be said that this President is the first to bomb another Nobel recipient after an attack on a MSF hospital. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunduz_hospital_airstrike https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunduz_hospital_airstrike
- imjonse 3y ago
  While literary Nobel prize winners may have their feuds, peace prize winners' disagreements can get much more serious.
- zarzavat 3y ago
  > On 7 October 2015, President Barack Obama issued an apology and announced the United States would be making condolence payments of $6,000 to the families of those killed in the airstrike Literally adding insult to injury. No wonder the US kills so many foreigners if it only values them at six thousand dollars a piece.
voisin 3y ago

bluish29 3y ago

My favorite Nobel peace prize goes to Abiy Ahmed who was awarded 2019 prize. He went to Sweden took the prize, deliver a speech then a couple of months later he went on a streak of atrocious in Ethiopia [1]. You name it ( mass killing, rape, genocide..etc). Also take into consideration that any head of state, prime minister or cabinet member in any government can nominate people for the prize (A lot of other people can do that too)[2] . So it would be always interesting to know who our governments officials nominated over time [1] https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2023/07/09/war-crimes-in-tigray-may-be-covered-up-or-forgotten https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2023/07/09/... [2] https://www.nobelprize.org/nomination/peace/ https://www.nobelprize.org/nomination/peace/

sorenjan 3y ago
The peace prize is awarded in Norway.
alephnerd 3y ago
> He went to Sweden took the prize Norway > So it would be always interesting to know who our governments officials nominated over time There's a list of nominees [0]. The Pakistani Senate nominated Erdogan for this year's prize, for example [0]. That said, most nominations seem to be done by Norwegian MPs trying to message to their own constituents (eg. Abiy's nomination and the large Ethiopian diaspora voting bloc in Norway and Sweden) [1] [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Nobel_Peace_Prize https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Nobel_Peace_Prize [1] - https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/15/world/africa/ethiopia-abiy-ahmed-nobel-war.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/15/world/africa/ethiopia-abi...

tonmoy 3y ago

There have been some “anti-western” Nobel peace prize awards in the recent past. I think Saudi Arab was not happy about 2011 Nobel peace prize winner for example. While Snowden and Assange have done great things, they are not exactly in line with the human rights activism type activities rewarded by the committee.

mc32 3y ago
The peace prize should be about people who promote peace or bring about peace. Snowden exposed civil rights violations and constitutional violations but I wouldn’t say it contributed to the avoidance of war or conflict. This should not be about “activism” but about political stabilization and the promotion of peace.

fauigerzigerk 3y ago

>For some reason, I don't see the award ever going to a rights activist fighting against the Saudi, Pakistani, or any other American-allied regimes. There have been a few, such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasser_Arafat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasser_Arafat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Mandela https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Mandela https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Ressa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Ressa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigoberta_Mench%C3%BA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigoberta_Mench%C3%BA

imjonse 3y ago
To be fair, Mandela did not get it while imprisoned and while the US and the UK were tacit supporters of the Apartheid regime. And Maria Ressa seems anti-Duterte, and pro-US if I read correctly.
- LindeBuzoGray 3y ago
  Right, Mandela got it when he was being conciliatory to the government and its Western support, with other ANC elements being less so. The same with Arafat - he was conciliatory to Israel and its western support at Oslo, with Hamas and the PFLP being less so. Both were not fighting when.they got the prize, but being conciliatory.
  - fauigerzigerk 3y ago
    I don't agree that Arafat was fighting any less than Narges Mohammadi when he got the Nobel Peace Prize. He didn't get the prize for surrendering (neither did Mandela but he got the prize after he had already won).
- fauigerzigerk 3y ago
  >Mandela did not get it while imprisoned and while the US and the UK were tacit supporters of the Apartheid regime True >Maria Ressa seems anti-Duterte, and pro-US if I read correctly Duterte is/was a Trump style figure in a country that houses U.S military bases. If Pakistan counts then the Philippines must count as well.

imjonse 3y ago

Lê_Đức_Thọ, who fought the US in Vietnam, got it in 1973 (together with Kissinger) and promptly refused it. Maybe the Nobel committee does not want to be embarrassed by a refusal again, and that is the only reason it no longer awards it to anti-western activists :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%AA_%C4%90%E1%BB%A9c_Th%E1%BB%8D https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%AA_%C4%90%E1%BB%A9c_Th%E1...

funnyflywheel 3y ago
Thanks for the reminder that Heinz (Henry) Kissinger is still alive at age 100.
bt4u 3y ago
[dead]

lettergram 3y ago

To be fair, Obama was granted a Nobel peace prize almost as soon as he got in office (just for being in office)… it was also right before continuing the drone assassination campaign, including the extra judicial killing of US citizens without trial https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Abdulrahman_al-Awlaki https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Abdulrahman_al-Aw... I’ve always views the Nobel peace prize as a political body. Designed to highlight and reward people of a certain persuasion.

bnralt 3y ago

ElBaradei won in 2005, when he was a vocal opponent of Bush's military interventions (Obama's prize in 2009 was likewise mainly a rebuke of Bush). Tawakkol Karman (2011) has been a vocal critic of Saudi Arabia. Willy Brandt received his prize specifically for increasing ties with the Eastern Bloc. In terms of prizes giving for those working against particular regimes, anti-apartheid activists have received the most (1960, 1984, 1993). A lot of people end up making assumptions based on their own personal biases.

muniq 3y ago
Gandhi - whose name has become synonymous with peace and non-violence - was nominated 3 times but didn't win. The evidence strongly suggests that the Nobel committee doesn't like giving the prize against anti-western dissidents until they absolutely have to, i.e. when not giving the prize would raise more eyebrows and damage the Nobel's reputation. The two anti-western dissidents that come to mind are Nelson Mandela and (arguably) Martin Luther King. Again, they received the prize after achieving global fame and recognition. ElBaradei won the prize for his work in the IAEA (whose primary focus has been on non-western nations) -not for his opposition to the Iraq war - whose primary focus has been on non-western nations. Tawakkol Karman (2011) is another dissident against a non-western country. Willy Brandt wasn't a dissident of the West. Far from it in fact - known for fierce anti-communist domestic policies , support for right-wing governments, the Vietnam war and for promoting greater European and western integration. Nobel prizes given to anti-apartheid South African activists seem to be a laudable counter-example to the rule though.
- bnralt 3y ago
  > The two anti-western dissidents that come to mind are Nelson Mandela and (arguably) Martin Luther King. Again, they received the prize after achieving global fame and recognition. Seems like a “no true Scotsman” argument. Naturally, the winners are going to often be prominent individuals. > Tawakkol Karman (2011) is another dissident against a non-western country. The previous poster specifically said “I don't see the award ever going to a rights activist fighting against the Saudi, Pakistani, or any other American-allied regimes,” so I brought up a recent activist that has been against the Saudi government (and I guess Malala Yousafzai could be viewed as critical of many parts of the Pakistani government). > ElBaradei won the prize for his work in the IAEA (whose primary focus has been on non-western nations) -not for his opposition to the Iraq war - whose primary focus has been on non-western nations. It was pretty obvious to everyone at the time that this (as well as Obama’s prize) was a direct rebuke against Bush’s foreign policy. Here’s the opening paragraph of the New York Times article about his award[1]: > The Nobel Peace Prize was awarded Friday to the International Atomic Energy Agency and its chief, Mohamed ElBaradei, whom the Bush administration tried but failed to remove from his job just months ago. > The award was a vindication of a man and an agency long at odds with President Bush and his administration over how to confront Iraq and Iran. It could strengthen the agency's position as conflicts loom over preventing Iran from obtaining fuel it could use for nuclear weapons and disarming North Korea. > For most of the last year, the Bush administration had tried to block Dr. ElBaradei from assuming a third term as chief of the agency, a part of the United Nations, arguing that he would not be strong enough to face down Iran and the covert nuclear weapons program it is suspected of having. But the United States had no support from any of its allies, and ultimately had to withdraw its objections to Dr. ElBaradei's reappointment. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/08/front%20page/world/atomic-agency-and-chief-win-the-peace-prize.html https://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/08/front%20page/world/atomic...

trimethylpurine 3y ago

This is because civil rights are a Western ideology. They certainly didn't come from ISIS' views on women. Nor from Russia and China, who supported them. Snowden defected to Russia, see above about supporting ISIS. Assange and Manning's exposure literally cost the lives of Afghan families who were working against AQ, another regime that openly oppresses its people's civil rights. I think you might need to have a hard look at what you think peace is. So far, the most civil rights a person can experience is under Western governance, flawed as it is.

user3939382 3y ago
> Snowden defected to Russia To add context, Snowden became trapped in Russia when the US State Department decided to cancel his passport while he was at an airport there on the way out of Russia. > Assange and Manning's exposure literally cost the lives of Afghan families Exposure like the footage they revealed of US drones killing innocent civilians? > The U.S. post-9/11 wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Syria, and Pakistan have taken a tremendous human toll on those countries. As of September 2021, an estimated 432,093 civilians in these countries have died violent deaths as a result of the wars. Right, Assange is the problem, not the US military operations he exposed.
- trimethylpurine 3y ago
  >Right, Assange is the problem, not the US military operations he exposed. It's only clear that civilians were intentionally targeted by ISIS and AQ. It's also true that civilians who opposed Western military forces were killed. That's expected, because opposing a military force is an official enlistment. Assange is the problem. You don't get a peace prize for aiding in civil rights oppression.
- nobodynobody 3y ago
  [flagged]
AnonCoward42 3y ago
> This is because civil rights are a Western ideology. They certainly didn't come from ISIS' views on women. Nor from Russia and China, who supported them. How do you come to the conclusion that Russia and China support ISIS?

pastor_bob 3y ago

>Edward Snowden You mean the guy who has sworn allegiance to Putin and takes an anti-Ukraine stance on Twitter to save his neck? A guy who has made millions peddling 'his story' and lives a life of luxury in Moscow? Yeah, surely he should get a Nobel prize

alephnerd 3y ago

> more for fighting against an anti-American, anti-Western government "[t]he recipient is selected by the Norwegian Nobel Committee, a five-member committee appointed by the Parliament of Norway. Since 2020 the prize is awarded in the Atrium of the University of Oslo" [0] The winners are basically selected by a subset of retired Norwegian MPs, and even Alfred Nobel's living heir has become opposed to the politicization of the Nobel Peace Price [1]. So it's reflecting the values of a subset of the Norwegian elite The comment above should NOT be viewed as a rejection of Narges Mohammadi's work. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_Peace_Prize https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_Peace_Prize [1] - https://www.aftenposten.no/meninger/i/wP6y1/i-strid-med-nobels-vilje https://www.aftenposten.no/meninger/i/wP6y1/i-strid-med-nobe...

Theodores 3y ago

If I remember correctly, Saudi Arabia and Iran struck a peace deal this year, brokered with Chinese help. We haven't heard about Yemen since. Surely Xi Jinping, MBS and Khamenei deserve the award for actual peace? Yeah, that is three people we are told to hate. But they achieved actual peace. Instead we get this Iranian woman that nobody had heard of before today. Something is not right.

alephnerd 3y ago
> Saudi Arabia and Iran struck a peace deal this year, brokered with Chinese help. It wasn't a peace deal - it was a normalization of relations (aka they've reestablished diplomatic contact) [0]. Iranian and Saudi proxies are still killing each other in Syria and Iraq. > We haven't heard about Yemen since. That's because of Oman acting as a mediator between the Houthis and Saudis [1] [0] - https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/06/12/saudi-iran-rapprochement-normalization-deal-china-de-escalation-yemen-syria/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/06/12/saudi-iran-rapprochemen... [1] - https://www.cfr.org/global-conflict-tracker/conflict/war-yemen https://www.cfr.org/global-conflict-tracker/conflict/war-yem...

dragonwriter 3y ago

> For some reason, I don't see the award ever going to a rights activist fighting against the Saudi, Pakistani, or any other American-allied regimes Rigoberta Menchú (awarded 1992) was an activist against the abuses of US allied regime, which abuses were aligned with and arguably a manifestation of US geopolitical priorities, and the Rev. Dr. King (awarded 1964) was an activist against the abuses of the American regime itself.

rsynnott 3y ago

> I of course don't ever see it going to someone fighting against the American regime itself Martin Luther King Jr got one.

77pt77 3y ago

My personal favorite is still Henry Kissinger, alive and well at 100 years old.