4 ms·

China is very high on the economic freedom scale (setting up a business, taxation etc.); probably much higher than the US or Europe.

FredPret 3y ago
Sure, so economically free, besides the communism part
- tw1984 3y ago
  China is a typical state capitalist country. You don't have the state looking after the wellfares of individuals, you are on your own all the time. $0 handouts during covid pandemic is the best example. You don't have unions stopping businesses and asking better pay & less working hours for its members. Talking about communism, the US is getting there fast. Look at its current union movement, with both 2024 US presidential election candidates openly supporting those unions, man, it is communism, it is cancer.
  - otikik 3y ago
    If you want to make the point that the US is communist, unions are not a great example - they are few and very weak, with a couple exceptions (Police Unions). The US is way more similar to communism in the way the ultrarich accumulate benefits but socialize loses. Another big example is the military, which is essentially a socialist organization.
    - tw1984 3y ago
      > If you want to make the point that the US is communist, unions are not a great example - they are few and very weak wait a second. unions in the US are weak? what a huge joke! UAW stopped the production of US made cars, asking 40% wage increase. Yet that is weak? let me tell you what is "weak" unions - in China, which implements state capitalism, unions represent the interests of the management & business owners, not workers & union members. Permanent contract is pretty much unheard of for labour workers, you won't get paid for working over time, 4 days per week communist style working hours is like 100 years away, you'd be luck if you don't need to work 7 days a week. you still pay your union fees, but you won't get anything from them, strike gets you into jail and your union bosses are going to kick your ass even before the arrival of police. you got brainwashed by your "free" media. you've never ever experienced the brutal state capitalism, as you live in your lovely western communist society. here in Shanghai, the economic capital of this state capitalist country called China - * you don't get treated for medical conditions if you don't pay all those treatments in advance. pay your bill late kind of communist arrangement doesn't exist here. * if you are a labour worker, you need to save like 500 years worth of your before tax income to buy a shitty & tiny apartment, that is right, you need to be start saving money before the independence of the communist US. * can't afford to buy? no worries, just rent, 3 months rent plus 1 month bond and 1 month rent equivalent agent fee is the typical condition here. factor in the cost to move, you pretty much need 6 months rent worth of money to afford to rent. * social housing you ask - people are going to laugh at you, that hasn't been invented yet. the state is the biggest land owner, residential land is auction to developers to build residential properties, why would any sane people working for the state to build social housing to undermine one of the largest income streams of the state? * can't afford to rent and there is no social housing? well, homeless is not an option as that deteriorate the quality of investment environment of your city. you will be dealt with like a piece of trash. angry about all these? well, they promote a few poster boys every year who managed to rise from the very bottom, they tell you something you probably heard it many times already - it is all about personal choices.
      - smcl 3y ago
        The UAW striking, and politicians showing support for unions is nothing new and doesn't suggest the USA is suddenly careening towards communism. You're either incredibly naive or have consumed some hysterical far-right news if you believe this.
        tw1984 3y ago
        When compared to China, the US is getting more and more like a communist country while China is getting more and more into state capitalism. There are facts you just can't deny at all - * far less income inequality in the US. A US software engineer working for Google/Apple/Amazon probably makes 3-5x more than a typical unskilled US worker, in China, a Chinese software engineer working for Alibaba/Tencent/Huawei can easily make 30-50x wage of a typical unskilled Chinese worker. * no union movements in China, they even banned The Internationale. the US is seeing wide spread strikes in many key sectors. this is eye opening for many Chinese. * no covid handouts in China, you are always on your own. numerous communist style handouts in the US during covid, that caused extremely high inflation and the current demand for wage increases & strikes. * free COVID-19 medicine in the US, full price out of your own pocket here in China. I paid two packs of Paxlovid back in Feb, cost me $600 USD and it was like winning the lottery to be able to buy them online, I had to try multiple time a day for two weeks, it sold out within seconds each time. * far more social welfares in the US, tons of real public hospitals & social housing. here in China, if you don't have enough money, you won't get shocked by your medical bill because you will never be tested or treated in the first place. you are always on your own. by the US standard, there is 0 public hospital in China, no hospital is fully or even half government funded, all those so called Chinese public hospitals have to source their fundings on their own.
        smcl 3y ago
        I suggest you look up what "communism" actually is - it's much more than "the government slightly helps you sometimes"
      - otikik 3y ago
        Weakness is a comparative thing. I’m European. Compared to Europe, American unions barely register. You gave an example where one union did something big one in the US once. Still small and weak compared to Europe. Unions can stop the economy of whole countries for 2 weeks if they get really pissed. Often with support from the rest of the population. I’m not trying to downplay how things are in China by any means, and I believe that the “brainwashing” accusation wasn’t merited. It’s a “elephant vs dog vs ant” situation.
tw1984 3y ago
That is not true. You are only allowed to setup businesses that are considered as in non-key sectors. Try setting a private gas station, or an ISP. Good lucky for that. The most recent example is the private tutor business, setting a private tutor business helping kids to do better in their maths exams can get you into big big trouble with the state. We are talking about an economy that didn't allow people to freely trade salt less than 10 years ago.
- throwaway4good 3y ago
  Around here setting up a sausage stand is tightly regulated. Granted. I don't know of any remotely reasonable (non-politicized) comparable study of economic freedom in China; my assessment is from talking to people (expats, entrepreneurs etc.) and just looking at what was going on. I remember sitting at a restaurant in a small village and watching a local drone company doing testing on the parking lot. 4 engineers and a drone the size of a small car. Just no way that would be allowed in anywhere in Europe.
  - FredPret 3y ago
    Europe isn't a bastion of economic freedom - a previous commenter described an absolutely egregious amount of government overreach pertaining taxes.
  - tw1984 3y ago
    > Around here setting up a sausage stand is tightly regulated. Around here, setting up a sausage stand requires special approval from the Prime Minister of the People's Republic of China. That is the exact special & emergency arrangement they put forward during COVID - people were allowed to setup such stands in selected areas during weekends to boost economy during COVID.
    - angra_mainyu 3y ago
      What about before COVID?
spacebanana7 3y ago
China is a has a very statist economic system with limited economic freedom for consumers. To list a few examples - urban property cannot be owned outright by any non-state entity, Chinese citizens are heavily restricted from investing overseas, and foreign investment/media consumption is also limited.
- somat 3y ago
  A question on the ownership of property in china and how it relates to the "nail" houses often seen in pictures. While I am sure real property ownership is weaker in china, The propaganda is I assume based on a exaggerated version of the truth. I also have never seen a public works project held up so dramatically by a single reluctant owner. Usually the government will claim eminent domain and poof, there go all your so called real property ownership rights, up in smoke. What is it about these cases that that a person in a communist state(where by definition no one owns property(yes I know this is not strictly true but for the sake of the question hear me out)) apparently has stronger property guarantees than than our ownership centric capitalist state?
  - spacebanana7 3y ago
    My concern with Chinese property rights is the nature of the land use right rather than the respect those rights receive for from the government. For example instead of buying a house in China, people obtain residential land use rights from the local authority for a period of up to 70 years [1]. AFAIK this translates to a 70 year leasehold contract in British, which isn't that much. It's very possible, in theory, to 'purchase' a house in China and have be unable to live in it within your lifetime. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_law_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_law_in_China
raverbashing 3y ago
This is easily proved wrong China is in position 154 https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking "Oh but China, oh but Europe, oh blah blah blah" try actually establishing a company on the lower bottoms of the rank
- angra_mainyu 3y ago
  https://www.networkideas.org/news-analysis/2005/06/index-of-economic-freedom/ https://www.networkideas.org/news-analysis/2005/06/index-of-... Using the Heritage Foundation's ranking is quite misleading.

FredPret 3y ago

Sure, so economically free, besides the communism part

tw1984 3y ago
China is a typical state capitalist country. You don't have the state looking after the wellfares of individuals, you are on your own all the time. $0 handouts during covid pandemic is the best example. You don't have unions stopping businesses and asking better pay & less working hours for its members. Talking about communism, the US is getting there fast. Look at its current union movement, with both 2024 US presidential election candidates openly supporting those unions, man, it is communism, it is cancer.
- otikik 3y ago
  If you want to make the point that the US is communist, unions are not a great example - they are few and very weak, with a couple exceptions (Police Unions). The US is way more similar to communism in the way the ultrarich accumulate benefits but socialize loses. Another big example is the military, which is essentially a socialist organization.
  - tw1984 3y ago
    > If you want to make the point that the US is communist, unions are not a great example - they are few and very weak wait a second. unions in the US are weak? what a huge joke! UAW stopped the production of US made cars, asking 40% wage increase. Yet that is weak? let me tell you what is "weak" unions - in China, which implements state capitalism, unions represent the interests of the management & business owners, not workers & union members. Permanent contract is pretty much unheard of for labour workers, you won't get paid for working over time, 4 days per week communist style working hours is like 100 years away, you'd be luck if you don't need to work 7 days a week. you still pay your union fees, but you won't get anything from them, strike gets you into jail and your union bosses are going to kick your ass even before the arrival of police. you got brainwashed by your "free" media. you've never ever experienced the brutal state capitalism, as you live in your lovely western communist society. here in Shanghai, the economic capital of this state capitalist country called China - * you don't get treated for medical conditions if you don't pay all those treatments in advance. pay your bill late kind of communist arrangement doesn't exist here. * if you are a labour worker, you need to save like 500 years worth of your before tax income to buy a shitty & tiny apartment, that is right, you need to be start saving money before the independence of the communist US. * can't afford to buy? no worries, just rent, 3 months rent plus 1 month bond and 1 month rent equivalent agent fee is the typical condition here. factor in the cost to move, you pretty much need 6 months rent worth of money to afford to rent. * social housing you ask - people are going to laugh at you, that hasn't been invented yet. the state is the biggest land owner, residential land is auction to developers to build residential properties, why would any sane people working for the state to build social housing to undermine one of the largest income streams of the state? * can't afford to rent and there is no social housing? well, homeless is not an option as that deteriorate the quality of investment environment of your city. you will be dealt with like a piece of trash. angry about all these? well, they promote a few poster boys every year who managed to rise from the very bottom, they tell you something you probably heard it many times already - it is all about personal choices.
    - smcl 3y ago
      The UAW striking, and politicians showing support for unions is nothing new and doesn't suggest the USA is suddenly careening towards communism. You're either incredibly naive or have consumed some hysterical far-right news if you believe this.
      - tw1984 3y ago
        When compared to China, the US is getting more and more like a communist country while China is getting more and more into state capitalism. There are facts you just can't deny at all - * far less income inequality in the US. A US software engineer working for Google/Apple/Amazon probably makes 3-5x more than a typical unskilled US worker, in China, a Chinese software engineer working for Alibaba/Tencent/Huawei can easily make 30-50x wage of a typical unskilled Chinese worker. * no union movements in China, they even banned The Internationale. the US is seeing wide spread strikes in many key sectors. this is eye opening for many Chinese. * no covid handouts in China, you are always on your own. numerous communist style handouts in the US during covid, that caused extremely high inflation and the current demand for wage increases & strikes. * free COVID-19 medicine in the US, full price out of your own pocket here in China. I paid two packs of Paxlovid back in Feb, cost me $600 USD and it was like winning the lottery to be able to buy them online, I had to try multiple time a day for two weeks, it sold out within seconds each time. * far more social welfares in the US, tons of real public hospitals & social housing. here in China, if you don't have enough money, you won't get shocked by your medical bill because you will never be tested or treated in the first place. you are always on your own. by the US standard, there is 0 public hospital in China, no hospital is fully or even half government funded, all those so called Chinese public hospitals have to source their fundings on their own.
        smcl 3y ago
        I suggest you look up what "communism" actually is - it's much more than "the government slightly helps you sometimes"
    - otikik 3y ago
      Weakness is a comparative thing. I’m European. Compared to Europe, American unions barely register. You gave an example where one union did something big one in the US once. Still small and weak compared to Europe. Unions can stop the economy of whole countries for 2 weeks if they get really pissed. Often with support from the rest of the population. I’m not trying to downplay how things are in China by any means, and I believe that the “brainwashing” accusation wasn’t merited. It’s a “elephant vs dog vs ant” situation.

tw1984 3y ago

That is not true. You are only allowed to setup businesses that are considered as in non-key sectors. Try setting a private gas station, or an ISP. Good lucky for that. The most recent example is the private tutor business, setting a private tutor business helping kids to do better in their maths exams can get you into big big trouble with the state. We are talking about an economy that didn't allow people to freely trade salt less than 10 years ago.

throwaway4good 3y ago
Around here setting up a sausage stand is tightly regulated. Granted. I don't know of any remotely reasonable (non-politicized) comparable study of economic freedom in China; my assessment is from talking to people (expats, entrepreneurs etc.) and just looking at what was going on. I remember sitting at a restaurant in a small village and watching a local drone company doing testing on the parking lot. 4 engineers and a drone the size of a small car. Just no way that would be allowed in anywhere in Europe.
- FredPret 3y ago
  Europe isn't a bastion of economic freedom - a previous commenter described an absolutely egregious amount of government overreach pertaining taxes.
- tw1984 3y ago
  > Around here setting up a sausage stand is tightly regulated. Around here, setting up a sausage stand requires special approval from the Prime Minister of the People's Republic of China. That is the exact special & emergency arrangement they put forward during COVID - people were allowed to setup such stands in selected areas during weekends to boost economy during COVID.
  - angra_mainyu 3y ago
    What about before COVID?

spacebanana7 3y ago

China is a has a very statist economic system with limited economic freedom for consumers. To list a few examples - urban property cannot be owned outright by any non-state entity, Chinese citizens are heavily restricted from investing overseas, and foreign investment/media consumption is also limited.

somat 3y ago
A question on the ownership of property in china and how it relates to the "nail" houses often seen in pictures. While I am sure real property ownership is weaker in china, The propaganda is I assume based on a exaggerated version of the truth. I also have never seen a public works project held up so dramatically by a single reluctant owner. Usually the government will claim eminent domain and poof, there go all your so called real property ownership rights, up in smoke. What is it about these cases that that a person in a communist state(where by definition no one owns property(yes I know this is not strictly true but for the sake of the question hear me out)) apparently has stronger property guarantees than than our ownership centric capitalist state?
- spacebanana7 3y ago
  My concern with Chinese property rights is the nature of the land use right rather than the respect those rights receive for from the government. For example instead of buying a house in China, people obtain residential land use rights from the local authority for a period of up to 70 years [1]. AFAIK this translates to a 70 year leasehold contract in British, which isn't that much. It's very possible, in theory, to 'purchase' a house in China and have be unable to live in it within your lifetime. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_law_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_law_in_China

raverbashing 3y ago

This is easily proved wrong China is in position 154 https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking "Oh but China, oh but Europe, oh blah blah blah" try actually establishing a company on the lower bottoms of the rank

angra_mainyu 3y ago
https://www.networkideas.org/news-analysis/2005/06/index-of-economic-freedom/ https://www.networkideas.org/news-analysis/2005/06/index-of-... Using the Heritage Foundation's ranking is quite misleading.