3 ms·

> You know, there are companies now that will basically install the panels with no upfront cost and then sort of lease it for you and defray that cost by sellin

> You know, there are companies now that will basically install the panels with no upfront cost and then sort of lease it for you and defray that cost by selling electricity. So it's really just been an explosion of business models. Ah yes, nothing like the explosion of predatory business models to bring a tear of joy to my capitalist heart. > They're not always the same types of jobs. So those sorts of changes can be quite wrenching for workers. “Quite wrenching” indeed. What an ivory tower asshole.

triceratops 3y ago
> What an ivory tower asshole The Pacific Islanders watching their countries sink into the waves, or Africans or Asians facing the prospect of drought and famine may have a different idea of who the "ivory tower assholes" are. Compared to what their future holds, a little career change is nothing.
- eep_social 3y ago
  Sounds like we agree.
gruez 3y ago
>Ah yes, nothing like the explosion of predatory business models to bring a tear of joy to my capitalist heart. How is it predatory? Are you just against any sort of financing because "capitalists" are making money?
- 20after4 3y ago
  There are a bunch of things wrong with having someone else own the solar on your roof. Read the contracts, they are not particularly fair to the home owner.
- eep_social 3y ago
  Leasing is not risk free. These programs are generally structured to extract maximum value for the leasing company while minimizing risk. They are not designed to provide some kind of equitable win-win for the homeowner, though obviously the marketing copy doesn’t reflect that.
- rcoveson 3y ago
  It's not financing. You'll never own those panels. You now have a permanent, physical relationship with the stupid solar company. Business models like that normalize two things: 1. Everything should be absurdly, suspiciously cheap or even free. 2. You don't own things you buy, you just own the right to use them according to your lengthy legal agreement with the real owner. These have become very popular ideas! So popular, in fact, that if you object you're stuck paying for specialty items that are dramatically more expensive than they would be if they could be produced at scale. The unfortunate truth about living in a big economy is that everybody merely exercising their free choice really does affect everybody else. So we reserve the right to talk shit about annoying business models, in the hopes that we will make them at least a little bit less cool and less popular so the competitors with "purer" models (like, "build a thing people want and trade full ownership of that thing for money") have more of a chance to scale up.
  - eep_social 3y ago
    > You'll never own those panels. There’s actually one scenario where you do — the panels reach end of life right around the time the lease is up. So you are now the proud owner of a removal and disposal liability that you’re going to want to handle before you sell the house.
  - oldbbsnickname 3y ago
    And those sort typically don't include batteries or an ATS with the ability to generate during a grid outage. If a homeowner wanted a usable solar installation aligned with their interests, it's unlikely to happen without investing the capital to do so. So-called "free choice" coming from a reckless, hyper-individualist outlook imposing on others are externalities. This is where government must step in and mediate potential disputes between the boundaries of positive and negative rights of multiple parties.
- cheschire 3y ago
  I have a free couch to lease to you for only $15 a month.
  - gruez 3y ago
    That's not really a good analogy because couches can't generate revenue.
    - cheschire 3y ago
      That's why it's discounted from $25! Unless you use it in a coffee shop, in which case paragraph 18 of the lease applies and the cost is $25 plus cleaning fees for the cleaning company of my choice. As an aside, this is just written in jest. I don't feel strongly about a debatable position against your position or something. You're welcome to continue explaining your point as you have and I am open mindedly considering what you're saying. You bring up a good point about the revenue generation.
- _ea1k 3y ago
  I like solar, but there are a lot of slimy salesmen. I've seen installs that were heavily shaded to the point that they certainly couldn't be profitable. They weren't new and just waiting on tree trimming either. There are good companies, but the most effective salesmen aren't necessarily the most honest.
  - whartung 3y ago
    I can’t spell out specifics, but as I understand it, in California if a solar install isn’t working efficiently or bringing in the savings that it’s supposed to, it’s on the installer to make it right. And there’s some kind of third party incentive on this as I’ve had a couple of different folks ding my door asking if the panels are doing their job. The last person mentioned about getting my address registered as a happy consumer, and since then the folks have stopped coming to ask about it.
    - _ea1k 3y ago
      Oh, there are definitely things that can help a consumer avoid the slimiest ones. For example, if you get a loan, they will often be contractually obligated to the lender to meet their production targets. You can also ask for a production guarantee. But not all states force them to do that, and salesmen are paid on commission.

triceratops 3y ago

> What an ivory tower asshole The Pacific Islanders watching their countries sink into the waves, or Africans or Asians facing the prospect of drought and famine may have a different idea of who the "ivory tower assholes" are. Compared to what their future holds, a little career change is nothing.

eep_social 3y ago
Sounds like we agree.

gruez 3y ago

>Ah yes, nothing like the explosion of predatory business models to bring a tear of joy to my capitalist heart. How is it predatory? Are you just against any sort of financing because "capitalists" are making money?

20after4 3y ago
There are a bunch of things wrong with having someone else own the solar on your roof. Read the contracts, they are not particularly fair to the home owner.
eep_social 3y ago
Leasing is not risk free. These programs are generally structured to extract maximum value for the leasing company while minimizing risk. They are not designed to provide some kind of equitable win-win for the homeowner, though obviously the marketing copy doesn’t reflect that.
rcoveson 3y ago
It's not financing. You'll never own those panels. You now have a permanent, physical relationship with the stupid solar company. Business models like that normalize two things: 1. Everything should be absurdly, suspiciously cheap or even free. 2. You don't own things you buy, you just own the right to use them according to your lengthy legal agreement with the real owner. These have become very popular ideas! So popular, in fact, that if you object you're stuck paying for specialty items that are dramatically more expensive than they would be if they could be produced at scale. The unfortunate truth about living in a big economy is that everybody merely exercising their free choice really does affect everybody else. So we reserve the right to talk shit about annoying business models, in the hopes that we will make them at least a little bit less cool and less popular so the competitors with "purer" models (like, "build a thing people want and trade full ownership of that thing for money") have more of a chance to scale up.
- eep_social 3y ago
  > You'll never own those panels. There’s actually one scenario where you do — the panels reach end of life right around the time the lease is up. So you are now the proud owner of a removal and disposal liability that you’re going to want to handle before you sell the house.
- oldbbsnickname 3y ago
  And those sort typically don't include batteries or an ATS with the ability to generate during a grid outage. If a homeowner wanted a usable solar installation aligned with their interests, it's unlikely to happen without investing the capital to do so. So-called "free choice" coming from a reckless, hyper-individualist outlook imposing on others are externalities. This is where government must step in and mediate potential disputes between the boundaries of positive and negative rights of multiple parties.
cheschire 3y ago
I have a free couch to lease to you for only $15 a month.
- gruez 3y ago
  That's not really a good analogy because couches can't generate revenue.
  - cheschire 3y ago
    That's why it's discounted from $25! Unless you use it in a coffee shop, in which case paragraph 18 of the lease applies and the cost is $25 plus cleaning fees for the cleaning company of my choice. As an aside, this is just written in jest. I don't feel strongly about a debatable position against your position or something. You're welcome to continue explaining your point as you have and I am open mindedly considering what you're saying. You bring up a good point about the revenue generation.
_ea1k 3y ago
I like solar, but there are a lot of slimy salesmen. I've seen installs that were heavily shaded to the point that they certainly couldn't be profitable. They weren't new and just waiting on tree trimming either. There are good companies, but the most effective salesmen aren't necessarily the most honest.
- whartung 3y ago
  I can’t spell out specifics, but as I understand it, in California if a solar install isn’t working efficiently or bringing in the savings that it’s supposed to, it’s on the installer to make it right. And there’s some kind of third party incentive on this as I’ve had a couple of different folks ding my door asking if the panels are doing their job. The last person mentioned about getting my address registered as a happy consumer, and since then the folks have stopped coming to ask about it.
  - _ea1k 3y ago
    Oh, there are definitely things that can help a consumer avoid the slimiest ones. For example, if you get a loan, they will often be contractually obligated to the lender to meet their production targets. You can also ask for a production guarantee. But not all states force them to do that, and salesmen are paid on commission.