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"what would it take to change your mind"? I launched into a misdirected diatribe that really was an attack on the concept that any historical evidence is suffic

"what would it take to change your mind"? I launched into a misdirected diatribe that really was an attack on the concept that any historical evidence is sufficient in itself to change anyone's mind. That is, I thought to argue that one's view of these kinds of evidences amount to personal interpretations of the historical artifacts emerging from one's world-view, after we place them into an incomplete model of some sort, itself a product of one's world-view. I unfortunately (or fortunately as I appreciate your response), hijacked your contribution to vent on. Attempting to salvage some of what I clumsily said initially, I might better state as a question; Is merely engaging in "my references are better than your references" argumentation an entirely honest approach, in that it (imho intentionally) ignores the bigger, weightier, more personal foundation, rarely transparently discussed; Which is, what is our view/belief of the nature of reality? These views/beliefs, in my opinion, are the filter we all use in choosing our "references". Are any of us truly objective? Do we even believe we should be? Arguments that satisfy one person fail to satisfy another just as intelligent person. And what about persons not so intelligent, and whose minds are convinced by other considerations? Should they/we really be at the mercy of the prevailing pronouncements of the intelligentsia in vogue today? That's why I don't place my faith in the "science" or some worldly authority figure, who I know, put their pants on the same as I, and reside somewhere on a spectrum of non-objectivity, just as I. But then, why am I even butting in again (I drank too much coffee!)?? The original question wasn't directed at me, a believer, but to an unbeliever.

btilly 3y ago
The problem for all people is this. We all suck at being objective and rational on that which is most important to us. This makes it hard to have conversations across divides of belief. Not impossible, but hard. You may find https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJX28l54YxE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJX28l54YxE very enlightening on that. It shows Sean McDowell having a cordial conversation with an atheist about how to talk with people of different beliefs. How it is possible to have different beliefs, and still have a real conversation. On this topic, I've worked hard at doing as well as I can in hard conversations. I've wound up on the science side of things. But with respect for those who believe otherwise. I, personally, have no choice but to believe the evidence that I have encountered. However I am also painfully aware that my views do not offer anything to replace major sources of emotional comfort that a lot of religious people have. I have no percentage in converting anyone else. But I do have a percentage in being very clear on what I believe, why I believe it, and what it would take for me to change my beliefs. I feel that clarity on this is part of the ideals that make science possible. Richard Feynman did a pretty good job of stating the ideals of science in http://www.feynman.com/science/what-is-science/ http://www.feynman.com/science/what-is-science/. The pithy version of it says, "Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts." Therefore it is important not to quote what the experts said. But rather how the experts reasoned, so that you can check it for yourself and not trust what they said. Feynman did an even better job of stating the ideals of science in https://calteches.library.caltech.edu/51/2/CargoCult.htm https://calteches.library.caltech.edu/51/2/CargoCult.htm. Again, he stressed how knowing what was said is less important than knowing how to check it for yourself. Furthermore, it is important to know that it has been checked. Nothing should be believed simply because some authority claimed it. Rather, we should know by what reasoning we ourselves are currently convinced. And we should stand ready to change our minds upon encountering the right evidence. Even if we think it extremely unlikely that we ever will encounter such evidence.
- captainvicman 3y ago
  Thanks; what triggered my initial response was your fine use of the word honesty, and I guess that's what I'm trying to get to the bottom of, with regard to how we approach evidence or facts. I'm not really intending be argumentative; here are my thoughts about what you wrote, if you're interested. 1.) IMO Rationality and objectivity are necessary but insufficient for having fruitful, conversations across divides of belief. Honesty is also necessary, vulnerability too, humility, and respect (cordiality) which you mention. 2.) You say you wind up on the science side of things. No finger pointing intended, but Are you an experimental scientist grappling with the data? How do you judge between differing claims of science? Does being a scientist in one field qualify you to judge scientific claims in other fields (or even your own)? If as you say, "nothing should be believed simply because some authority claimed it" then how should we form our beliefs? How comfortable/cozy are we with ambiguity and uncertainty? Do we acknowledge it honestly, quantify it in terms of how it's effects propagate? It seems obvious that expertise and authority is extremely important, but should/have we "put the foxes in charge of the hen house"? I agree the same things apply to religious authorities. That's why I'm so attracted to Jesus and how he interacted with the prevailing authorities (Religious, intellectual and military), and his personal claim of authority. These are substantive hard things I like to discuss. From what I read, "science" is in a state of crisis, i.e. that trust in "science" is declining. This is vague, imprecise and controversial admittedly, but I for one am a "modern science" skeptic. (btw, I'm an engineer by training, if that counts for anything). Here's an interesting HN link: https://aeon.co/essays/should-academic-disciplines-have-both-a-purpose-and-a-finish-date https://aeon.co/essays/should-academic-disciplines-have-both.... I disagree with the author's premise and starting point, he points out the worries, without (IMO) acknowledging "science" itself is partially to blame. (I didn't read the whole article, I should, now that I'm commenting on it). 3.) When you talk about hard conversions you have, and conversions or converting someone, I doubt that that's what your intention is, I would guess you're wanting test your own beliefs by putting them up against others. But I don't think actual beliefs are typically discussed, just what and how strong our differing interpretations of *evidences" are (i.e. Noah's Ark; I may be wrong assuming this in your case). It's exciting and rewarding, in my experience, to drop down a little deeper, but that takes vulnerability, humility and respect (none of which are easy). I don't know if you want to carry on a conversation or not, but I wanted to respond to some of what you wrote, and to thank you for an interesting conversation.

btilly 3y ago

The problem for all people is this. We all suck at being objective and rational on that which is most important to us. This makes it hard to have conversations across divides of belief. Not impossible, but hard. You may find https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJX28l54YxE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJX28l54YxE very enlightening on that. It shows Sean McDowell having a cordial conversation with an atheist about how to talk with people of different beliefs. How it is possible to have different beliefs, and still have a real conversation. On this topic, I've worked hard at doing as well as I can in hard conversations. I've wound up on the science side of things. But with respect for those who believe otherwise. I, personally, have no choice but to believe the evidence that I have encountered. However I am also painfully aware that my views do not offer anything to replace major sources of emotional comfort that a lot of religious people have. I have no percentage in converting anyone else. But I do have a percentage in being very clear on what I believe, why I believe it, and what it would take for me to change my beliefs. I feel that clarity on this is part of the ideals that make science possible. Richard Feynman did a pretty good job of stating the ideals of science in http://www.feynman.com/science/what-is-science/ http://www.feynman.com/science/what-is-science/. The pithy version of it says, "Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts." Therefore it is important not to quote what the experts said. But rather how the experts reasoned, so that you can check it for yourself and not trust what they said. Feynman did an even better job of stating the ideals of science in https://calteches.library.caltech.edu/51/2/CargoCult.htm https://calteches.library.caltech.edu/51/2/CargoCult.htm. Again, he stressed how knowing what was said is less important than knowing how to check it for yourself. Furthermore, it is important to know that it has been checked. Nothing should be believed simply because some authority claimed it. Rather, we should know by what reasoning we ourselves are currently convinced. And we should stand ready to change our minds upon encountering the right evidence. Even if we think it extremely unlikely that we ever will encounter such evidence.

captainvicman 3y ago
Thanks; what triggered my initial response was your fine use of the word honesty, and I guess that's what I'm trying to get to the bottom of, with regard to how we approach evidence or facts. I'm not really intending be argumentative; here are my thoughts about what you wrote, if you're interested. 1.) IMO Rationality and objectivity are necessary but insufficient for having fruitful, conversations across divides of belief. Honesty is also necessary, vulnerability too, humility, and respect (cordiality) which you mention. 2.) You say you wind up on the science side of things. No finger pointing intended, but Are you an experimental scientist grappling with the data? How do you judge between differing claims of science? Does being a scientist in one field qualify you to judge scientific claims in other fields (or even your own)? If as you say, "nothing should be believed simply because some authority claimed it" then how should we form our beliefs? How comfortable/cozy are we with ambiguity and uncertainty? Do we acknowledge it honestly, quantify it in terms of how it's effects propagate? It seems obvious that expertise and authority is extremely important, but should/have we "put the foxes in charge of the hen house"? I agree the same things apply to religious authorities. That's why I'm so attracted to Jesus and how he interacted with the prevailing authorities (Religious, intellectual and military), and his personal claim of authority. These are substantive hard things I like to discuss. From what I read, "science" is in a state of crisis, i.e. that trust in "science" is declining. This is vague, imprecise and controversial admittedly, but I for one am a "modern science" skeptic. (btw, I'm an engineer by training, if that counts for anything). Here's an interesting HN link: https://aeon.co/essays/should-academic-disciplines-have-both-a-purpose-and-a-finish-date https://aeon.co/essays/should-academic-disciplines-have-both.... I disagree with the author's premise and starting point, he points out the worries, without (IMO) acknowledging "science" itself is partially to blame. (I didn't read the whole article, I should, now that I'm commenting on it). 3.) When you talk about hard conversions you have, and conversions or converting someone, I doubt that that's what your intention is, I would guess you're wanting test your own beliefs by putting them up against others. But I don't think actual beliefs are typically discussed, just what and how strong our differing interpretations of *evidences" are (i.e. Noah's Ark; I may be wrong assuming this in your case). It's exciting and rewarding, in my experience, to drop down a little deeper, but that takes vulnerability, humility and respect (none of which are easy). I don't know if you want to carry on a conversation or not, but I wanted to respond to some of what you wrote, and to thank you for an interesting conversation.