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Consumers that care whether their phone browser runs WebKit or not (I bet it’s <0.01% of iPhone users) can choose Android. My mom has an iPhone and I can sleep

Consumers that care whether their phone browser runs WebKit or not (I bet it’s <0.01% of iPhone users) can choose Android. My mom has an iPhone and I can sleep safe knowing she won’t install some dodgy browser or anything like that. I’m happy such category of devices exist and I’m happy to pay a premium.

CivBase 3y ago
When Android is the only real alternative "just don't buy iPhones" isn't a very compelling argument. Android has tons of problems and likewise, the only alternative users really have is the iPhone. Consumers need more than two options if the free market is going to be effective.
- HatchedLake721 3y ago
  There will not be more than two options anytime soon, and what a lot of people miss here, it’s developer’s fault too. Microsoft in their last few years tried very hard to incentivise developers to build apps for Windows Phone. But many didn’t bother. Some even only targeted iOS because of the reach and how amazing the development experience was, including less devices to test and support compared to Android and Windows Phone. And this made the choice for consumers easier, when (I don’t remember the names) some very popular and big apps at the time were not natively available on Windows Phone at all. Even Tim Sweeney never brought Unreal Engine to Windows Phone despite their promises and I’d say played part to build the current status quo. Developers voted with their time to build apps for a 30% fee marketplace that suddenly was a gateway to distribute their work to millions of users worldwide that was not heard of before in the era of Windows Mobile. (pre iPhone) And now they cry wolf about the system they’ve voluntarily helped to build.
  - CivBase 3y ago
    It doesn't really matter how it came to be or who was involved. The point is there are two options now and there is no sign of that changing any time soon. And this affects almost everyone, not just developers. Smartphones are ubiquitous in North America and Europe, and just about everyone uses them to access the web via a browser.
- spacebacon 3y ago
  There will always only be two options in all things. Bifurcation is universal. The illusion of more than two options is short lived.
  - CivBase 3y ago
    What makes you say this? There are plenty of examples to the contrary. Airlines, cars, gas stations, shoes, beer, bikes, browsers, power tools, pizzas, etc. Sure, there are plenty of duopolies out there, but there are also plenty of monopolies. That doesn't mean they're inevitable.
    - spacebacon 3y ago
      This may be the illusion of choice provided by disruption... Eventually all would settle to just two if no further disruption (periods of chaos) challenged the natural order of dominance. Not feasible in reality as change is constant. Just in theory. Occasionally we see a clear bifurcation the more order we nuance out in large complex systems like politics where the stakes are high and attention is great. We settle on left or right. The sage walks two roads in this case.
mattnewton 3y ago
You can already download alternative browsers, their engine isn't what is stopping them from running spam, it's the app review process. And in any case, I have older relatives on both platforms and I don't see more problems with dogy apps on the pixel than on the iphone, both of them are full of spam notifications but otherwise totally functional. Most users won't change the defaults anyways, I think this fear is well overblown.
eviks 3y ago
And you should have your separate paid premium service of locking the device for your mom in the future instead of crippling 100% of users
- HatchedLake721 3y ago
  You mean crippling 0.01% of users that want to run something except WebKit. 99.99% of users don’t care. That’s why iPhone today is still the #1 mobile phone with highest loyalty and consumer satisfaction scores for over a decade. You don’t become an industry changing leader and stay #1 by “crippling 100% of users”. It’s just what you think is crippling, others don’t care about.
  - eviks 3y ago
    No, I meant 100% since the limitations you support affect literally everyone your misleading stats notwithstanding > That’s why iPhone today is still the #1 mobile phone with highest loyalty and consumer satisfaction scores for over a decade. That's just another thing you've made up > You don’t become an industry changing leader and stay #1 by “crippling 100% of users”. It’s just what you think is crippling, others don’t care about. That's a rather simplistic view of the real world where leadership and customer satisfaction must depend on the single factor you're currently arguing about. In reality you could easily be a leader across a bunch of areas and then totally fail in others with the overall balance still being in your favor
    - HatchedLake721 3y ago
      Yes, it affects 100% of iPhone users, because... they're an iPhone user. But 99.9% don't care about running non WebKit browser, so it doesn't cripple 100% of users because they are not affected by this. Same as having no Flash support today doesn't cripple 100% of iPhone users, because they don't care about it. Go and ask your friends/parents/family/grandparents if they're crippled by not being able to run a non WebKit browser and listen to their answers. I'm not making up numbers, I'm generalising it. There's 1.5 billion iPhone users in the world, and there's ~26 million developers in world, that's less than 2% of 1.5 billion. Only a set of ~26 million developers have iPhones, even smaller set know the word WebKit, and even smaller set of those that know what WebKit means even care that their iPhone cannot run a non WebKit browser. So yes, I can generalise and say that 0.01% of iPhone users care about non WebKit browsers. I can make it 0.1%, 1% or even 2%, it doesn't change the point - a minority of techies who like to tinker with their gadgets (including some business owners who want to increase their revenue) want to force their needs on 99% of people by exposing over a billion people to new security and privacy threats and attack vectors. All while for the last 15 years they were happily piggy backing in the walled garden that was designed this way since day 1 and playing key role in Apple's success building a marketplace of 1.5 billion people that was unimaginable in 2008. And then suddenly 15/30% became too much, please change the terms we were playing along for 15 years, open up the iPhone!!

CivBase 3y ago

When Android is the only real alternative "just don't buy iPhones" isn't a very compelling argument. Android has tons of problems and likewise, the only alternative users really have is the iPhone. Consumers need more than two options if the free market is going to be effective.

HatchedLake721 3y ago
There will not be more than two options anytime soon, and what a lot of people miss here, it’s developer’s fault too. Microsoft in their last few years tried very hard to incentivise developers to build apps for Windows Phone. But many didn’t bother. Some even only targeted iOS because of the reach and how amazing the development experience was, including less devices to test and support compared to Android and Windows Phone. And this made the choice for consumers easier, when (I don’t remember the names) some very popular and big apps at the time were not natively available on Windows Phone at all. Even Tim Sweeney never brought Unreal Engine to Windows Phone despite their promises and I’d say played part to build the current status quo. Developers voted with their time to build apps for a 30% fee marketplace that suddenly was a gateway to distribute their work to millions of users worldwide that was not heard of before in the era of Windows Mobile. (pre iPhone) And now they cry wolf about the system they’ve voluntarily helped to build.
- CivBase 3y ago
  It doesn't really matter how it came to be or who was involved. The point is there are two options now and there is no sign of that changing any time soon. And this affects almost everyone, not just developers. Smartphones are ubiquitous in North America and Europe, and just about everyone uses them to access the web via a browser.
spacebacon 3y ago
There will always only be two options in all things. Bifurcation is universal. The illusion of more than two options is short lived.
- CivBase 3y ago
  What makes you say this? There are plenty of examples to the contrary. Airlines, cars, gas stations, shoes, beer, bikes, browsers, power tools, pizzas, etc. Sure, there are plenty of duopolies out there, but there are also plenty of monopolies. That doesn't mean they're inevitable.
  - spacebacon 3y ago
    This may be the illusion of choice provided by disruption... Eventually all would settle to just two if no further disruption (periods of chaos) challenged the natural order of dominance. Not feasible in reality as change is constant. Just in theory. Occasionally we see a clear bifurcation the more order we nuance out in large complex systems like politics where the stakes are high and attention is great. We settle on left or right. The sage walks two roads in this case.

mattnewton 3y ago

You can already download alternative browsers, their engine isn't what is stopping them from running spam, it's the app review process. And in any case, I have older relatives on both platforms and I don't see more problems with dogy apps on the pixel than on the iphone, both of them are full of spam notifications but otherwise totally functional. Most users won't change the defaults anyways, I think this fear is well overblown.

eviks 3y ago

And you should have your separate paid premium service of locking the device for your mom in the future instead of crippling 100% of users

HatchedLake721 3y ago
You mean crippling 0.01% of users that want to run something except WebKit. 99.99% of users don’t care. That’s why iPhone today is still the #1 mobile phone with highest loyalty and consumer satisfaction scores for over a decade. You don’t become an industry changing leader and stay #1 by “crippling 100% of users”. It’s just what you think is crippling, others don’t care about.
- eviks 3y ago
  No, I meant 100% since the limitations you support affect literally everyone your misleading stats notwithstanding > That’s why iPhone today is still the #1 mobile phone with highest loyalty and consumer satisfaction scores for over a decade. That's just another thing you've made up > You don’t become an industry changing leader and stay #1 by “crippling 100% of users”. It’s just what you think is crippling, others don’t care about. That's a rather simplistic view of the real world where leadership and customer satisfaction must depend on the single factor you're currently arguing about. In reality you could easily be a leader across a bunch of areas and then totally fail in others with the overall balance still being in your favor
  - HatchedLake721 3y ago
    Yes, it affects 100% of iPhone users, because... they're an iPhone user. But 99.9% don't care about running non WebKit browser, so it doesn't cripple 100% of users because they are not affected by this. Same as having no Flash support today doesn't cripple 100% of iPhone users, because they don't care about it. Go and ask your friends/parents/family/grandparents if they're crippled by not being able to run a non WebKit browser and listen to their answers. I'm not making up numbers, I'm generalising it. There's 1.5 billion iPhone users in the world, and there's ~26 million developers in world, that's less than 2% of 1.5 billion. Only a set of ~26 million developers have iPhones, even smaller set know the word WebKit, and even smaller set of those that know what WebKit means even care that their iPhone cannot run a non WebKit browser. So yes, I can generalise and say that 0.01% of iPhone users care about non WebKit browsers. I can make it 0.1%, 1% or even 2%, it doesn't change the point - a minority of techies who like to tinker with their gadgets (including some business owners who want to increase their revenue) want to force their needs on 99% of people by exposing over a billion people to new security and privacy threats and attack vectors. All while for the last 15 years they were happily piggy backing in the walled garden that was designed this way since day 1 and playing key role in Apple's success building a marketplace of 1.5 billion people that was unimaginable in 2008. And then suddenly 15/30% became too much, please change the terms we were playing along for 15 years, open up the iPhone!!