4 ms·

The most basic requirement of honesty, is having some. You criticized me for only referring to Wikipedia, when I had also linked to the University of Oxford. T

by btilly 3y ago

The most basic requirement of honesty, is having some. You criticized me for only referring to Wikipedia, when I had also linked to the University of Oxford. The honest response on your part would be, "Oh, I see that you had references." It would have ALSO been to thank me for telling you how to find more references, including a link to a book written by the discoverer of the Wallace Line. You did not do that. You launched into an argument about the analysis needed to decide whether to accept a particular piece of evidence. Ending with a criticism against any information given to you by elites. In short, you behaved dishonestly. If you behaved honestly, you'd have acknowledged your mistake. You could have also read the book that I offered. And proceeded to verify Wallace's claims about where you find placental mammals like tigers and monkeys versus marsupials like kangaroos and wombats. Which, depending on your energy, you could do with anything from National Geographic, to travel guides, to actually taking a vacation. A trip that I assure you is far easier to do today than it was 170 years ago back when Wallace was doing it. Given that you didn't do that, I'll let other people make their own minds up about which of us has been more reasonable. If they doubt me, I've just told them how to question my references, and how to validate them with no need to believe intellectual elites. If they doubt you, well, you've yet to provide anything that looks like a reference. Or show any sign that you're capable of even the basic integrity of being able to say, "I was wrong. You did provide references. And thank you for providing me with more." Which means that if they doubt you, you've given them absolutely no reason to stop doubting you.

captainvicman 3y ago
You are right. I was insincere in asking for references, not really intending to read any. My response was a rant, and misdirected. I should have read what you graciously provided, and then responded thankfully, honestly and sincerely. Thanks for not letting that slide and calling me out on that (really). I'm truly sorry for being disingenuous and making false accusations about your honesty, when my own was lacking. (I guess I'm my own bad example). I (now) intend (thanks to your rebuke) to read the references you kindly provided, and I hope to respond more sincerely in this thread after doing so.
captainvicman 3y ago
The book you referenced (Gutenberg) appears fascinating and engagingly written. I think it would be very interesting to read and discuss his theories, and also discuss how the Noah's Ark account in the Bible, and other scriptural "truth claims" would relate to these topics. Thanks for providing this reference.
captainvicman 3y ago
"what would it take to change your mind"? I launched into a misdirected diatribe that really was an attack on the concept that any historical evidence is sufficient in itself to change anyone's mind. That is, I thought to argue that one's view of these kinds of evidences amount to personal interpretations of the historical artifacts emerging from one's world-view, after we place them into an incomplete model of some sort, itself a product of one's world-view. I unfortunately (or fortunately as I appreciate your response), hijacked your contribution to vent on. Attempting to salvage some of what I clumsily said initially, I might better state as a question; Is merely engaging in "my references are better than your references" argumentation an entirely honest approach, in that it (imho intentionally) ignores the bigger, weightier, more personal foundation, rarely transparently discussed; Which is, what is our view/belief of the nature of reality? These views/beliefs, in my opinion, are the filter we all use in choosing our "references". Are any of us truly objective? Do we even believe we should be? Arguments that satisfy one person fail to satisfy another just as intelligent person. And what about persons not so intelligent, and whose minds are convinced by other considerations? Should they/we really be at the mercy of the prevailing pronouncements of the intelligentsia in vogue today? That's why I don't place my faith in the "science" or some worldly authority figure, who I know, put their pants on the same as I, and reside somewhere on a spectrum of non-objectivity, just as I. But then, why am I even butting in again (I drank too much coffee!)?? The original question wasn't directed at me, a believer, but to an unbeliever.
- btilly 3y ago
  The problem for all people is this. We all suck at being objective and rational on that which is most important to us. This makes it hard to have conversations across divides of belief. Not impossible, but hard. You may find https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJX28l54YxE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJX28l54YxE very enlightening on that. It shows Sean McDowell having a cordial conversation with an atheist about how to talk with people of different beliefs. How it is possible to have different beliefs, and still have a real conversation. On this topic, I've worked hard at doing as well as I can in hard conversations. I've wound up on the science side of things. But with respect for those who believe otherwise. I, personally, have no choice but to believe the evidence that I have encountered. However I am also painfully aware that my views do not offer anything to replace major sources of emotional comfort that a lot of religious people have. I have no percentage in converting anyone else. But I do have a percentage in being very clear on what I believe, why I believe it, and what it would take for me to change my beliefs. I feel that clarity on this is part of the ideals that make science possible. Richard Feynman did a pretty good job of stating the ideals of science in http://www.feynman.com/science/what-is-science/ http://www.feynman.com/science/what-is-science/. The pithy version of it says, "Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts." Therefore it is important not to quote what the experts said. But rather how the experts reasoned, so that you can check it for yourself and not trust what they said. Feynman did an even better job of stating the ideals of science in https://calteches.library.caltech.edu/51/2/CargoCult.htm https://calteches.library.caltech.edu/51/2/CargoCult.htm. Again, he stressed how knowing what was said is less important than knowing how to check it for yourself. Furthermore, it is important to know that it has been checked. Nothing should be believed simply because some authority claimed it. Rather, we should know by what reasoning we ourselves are currently convinced. And we should stand ready to change our minds upon encountering the right evidence. Even if we think it extremely unlikely that we ever will encounter such evidence.

by btilly 3y ago

captainvicman 3y ago

You are right. I was insincere in asking for references, not really intending to read any. My response was a rant, and misdirected. I should have read what you graciously provided, and then responded thankfully, honestly and sincerely. Thanks for not letting that slide and calling me out on that (really). I'm truly sorry for being disingenuous and making false accusations about your honesty, when my own was lacking. (I guess I'm my own bad example). I (now) intend (thanks to your rebuke) to read the references you kindly provided, and I hope to respond more sincerely in this thread after doing so.

captainvicman 3y ago

The book you referenced (Gutenberg) appears fascinating and engagingly written. I think it would be very interesting to read and discuss his theories, and also discuss how the Noah's Ark account in the Bible, and other scriptural "truth claims" would relate to these topics. Thanks for providing this reference.

captainvicman 3y ago

"what would it take to change your mind"? I launched into a misdirected diatribe that really was an attack on the concept that any historical evidence is sufficient in itself to change anyone's mind. That is, I thought to argue that one's view of these kinds of evidences amount to personal interpretations of the historical artifacts emerging from one's world-view, after we place them into an incomplete model of some sort, itself a product of one's world-view. I unfortunately (or fortunately as I appreciate your response), hijacked your contribution to vent on. Attempting to salvage some of what I clumsily said initially, I might better state as a question; Is merely engaging in "my references are better than your references" argumentation an entirely honest approach, in that it (imho intentionally) ignores the bigger, weightier, more personal foundation, rarely transparently discussed; Which is, what is our view/belief of the nature of reality? These views/beliefs, in my opinion, are the filter we all use in choosing our "references". Are any of us truly objective? Do we even believe we should be? Arguments that satisfy one person fail to satisfy another just as intelligent person. And what about persons not so intelligent, and whose minds are convinced by other considerations? Should they/we really be at the mercy of the prevailing pronouncements of the intelligentsia in vogue today? That's why I don't place my faith in the "science" or some worldly authority figure, who I know, put their pants on the same as I, and reside somewhere on a spectrum of non-objectivity, just as I. But then, why am I even butting in again (I drank too much coffee!)?? The original question wasn't directed at me, a believer, but to an unbeliever.

btilly 3y ago
The problem for all people is this. We all suck at being objective and rational on that which is most important to us. This makes it hard to have conversations across divides of belief. Not impossible, but hard. You may find https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJX28l54YxE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJX28l54YxE very enlightening on that. It shows Sean McDowell having a cordial conversation with an atheist about how to talk with people of different beliefs. How it is possible to have different beliefs, and still have a real conversation. On this topic, I've worked hard at doing as well as I can in hard conversations. I've wound up on the science side of things. But with respect for those who believe otherwise. I, personally, have no choice but to believe the evidence that I have encountered. However I am also painfully aware that my views do not offer anything to replace major sources of emotional comfort that a lot of religious people have. I have no percentage in converting anyone else. But I do have a percentage in being very clear on what I believe, why I believe it, and what it would take for me to change my beliefs. I feel that clarity on this is part of the ideals that make science possible. Richard Feynman did a pretty good job of stating the ideals of science in http://www.feynman.com/science/what-is-science/ http://www.feynman.com/science/what-is-science/. The pithy version of it says, "Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts." Therefore it is important not to quote what the experts said. But rather how the experts reasoned, so that you can check it for yourself and not trust what they said. Feynman did an even better job of stating the ideals of science in https://calteches.library.caltech.edu/51/2/CargoCult.htm https://calteches.library.caltech.edu/51/2/CargoCult.htm. Again, he stressed how knowing what was said is less important than knowing how to check it for yourself. Furthermore, it is important to know that it has been checked. Nothing should be believed simply because some authority claimed it. Rather, we should know by what reasoning we ourselves are currently convinced. And we should stand ready to change our minds upon encountering the right evidence. Even if we think it extremely unlikely that we ever will encounter such evidence.