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i don't think you're a programmer if you do not at least understand code. it's not elitism, it's just a definition. you don't have to be an expert or even under

i don't think you're a programmer if you do not at least understand code. it's not elitism, it's just a definition. you don't have to be an expert or even understand it well, but if you're just interacting with a chatbot and copying and pasting without knowing anything about it, you are not a programmer. what's next, if i execute a program on my computer I'm a developer because it solves my problem?

croes 3y ago
Am I an artist if I let Midjourney create an image for me
- tacheiordache 3y ago
  >Am I an artist if I let Midjourney create an image for me There are two answers: a) No, that only proves you can type. b) Yes, you are an artist just like everybody else.
- chank 3y ago
  No, you're an art "producer" in the same fashion of music producers who are not musicians, but still create music.
  - diggan 3y ago
    Honest question: Where is the line drawn between music producers and musicians? Playing instruments? Using samples?
    - chank 3y ago
      Areas of responsibility. The producer is the person ultimately responsible for the output. You can be a producer and not know a lick about good musicianship or play an instrument, but you have good taste and can use tools (samples, software, etc) to take what others have done to make something others will like/use/pay for/etc.
      - 0fox 3y ago
        You can be a software engineer and not know a lick about syntax or write algorithms, but you have good intuition and can use tools (LLMs, autocomplete, etc) to take what others have done to make something others will like/use/pay for/etc.
        skydhash 3y ago
        Why use tools? Just be a product manager and you'd attain the same result.
      - diggan 3y ago
        If you can put together (tasteful) songs by using tools like samples and software, aren't you a musician then? Many would consider tools like DAWs instruments, so mastering one of those would be considered playing an instrument, at least for those people.
        chank 3y ago
        > Many would consider tools like DAWs instruments... People can stretch the definition however they like since there is no hard acceptance of where the line is drawn. Sure the general term musician means a person who plays/creates music. A person who hums can be a musician. However in my own opinion, I disagree. DAWs are not instruments in themselves. The main functionality of a DAW is in recording, arranging, and mixing audio. They are the digital equivilent of a tape recorder and manual cut/splice process. They have evolved to include many software add-on emulations of instruments and packages around the production process: synths, pianos, mastering tools, additional recording tools, etc. Using a DAW does not make you a musician, but using provided instrumentation in a DAW can make you become a musician.
- scj 3y ago
  AI aside, does compiling using gcc with -S make someone an assembly programmer? Doing so helped me become a better assembly programmer.
- PheonixPharts 3y ago
  I think you're confusing artist with something specific like sculptor or painter. Some of the work people put into getting Stable Diffusion to create the results they want takes plenty of time and skill. But event then I would say that putting in time and skill is not strictly required to make art. You can absolutely be an artist using generative AI, but you of course wouldn't be a painter if you use generative AI. In this example you can be an application developer but still not a programmer.
reidjs 3y ago
Similarly, just because you can change your oil that doesn’t make you a mechanic. Making a one off program to solve a problem doesn’t warrant the title necessarily. Not that the title matters, though.
cgriswald 3y ago
Its hard to take meaning from your definition of programmer since you haven't defined code. As I understand 'code', it's just an interface for programming, not definitional. Consider the Python function 'max', which, given an iterable, will return the iterables biggest item. Now suppose I ask ChatGPT to generate a function (in whatever language you like) called 'max' that does the same thing and it returns a block of code that I copy and paste. In what way is Python's 'max' meaningfully different from ChatGPT's 'max'? It seems to me that these are essentially both just higher-level abstractions.
- asddubs 3y ago
  maybe you can argue the case that chatgpt is a programmer, but all the human is doing here is making requests and copying and pasting. is a manager a programmer? or, to put it another way, if everyone is a programmer, the word is meaningless.
  - bobbiechen 3y ago
    Echoes of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room thought experiment here.
  - piotrkaminski 3y ago
    Are you not a programmer because you use a compiler and "paste" its output into the executable? Or an assembler, instead of flipping bits by hand in memory? Are people making complex spreadsheets with hundreds of formulas not programmers? We've been raising the level of abstraction in code for decades and it looks like LLMs might just be the next level up. Yes, using LLMs will put more complex code within reach of more people but I'm sure it won't be nearly everyone, and I bet that it'll raise the ceiling of what the best programmers can do at the same time. Of course, we're free to redefine what "programmer" means at any time as well, if a new definition proves to be more useful.
    - mcluck 3y ago
      Fundamentally, I think it's a fuzzy matter of degrees. I go to the gym regularly but I am not an athlete. To me, an athlete is someone who dedicates themselves to the study, improvement, and mastery over their body, usually in a particular discipline. While everyone specializes, athletes also have general skills that the average person lacks. How do we define someone who is dedicated enough? I don't know. There's mountains of arguments about it across the internet but often the criteria is engaging in competition. To apply the same system to programming, one is a programmer if they dedicate themselves to the study and mastery over their computer, usually in a particular discipline. The disciplines of programming may be defined around the abstraction level. While everyone specializes, programmers also have general skills that the average person lacks. I would argue that the most important of those general skills is understanding the relationship between instructions, execution time, and memory usage as well using that knowledge to weigh different approaches. How do we separate a hobby programmer from someone who regurgitates AI responses with no understanding? I don't know. Maybe their ability to derive new answers if the AI didn't give them a correct answer. Words do have meaning and we should be careful not to degrade the meaning down to anyone who is capable of asking an AI questions but I doubt we'll ever have a non-fuzzy definition of programmer

croes 3y ago

Am I an artist if I let Midjourney create an image for me

tacheiordache 3y ago
>Am I an artist if I let Midjourney create an image for me There are two answers: a) No, that only proves you can type. b) Yes, you are an artist just like everybody else.
chank 3y ago
No, you're an art "producer" in the same fashion of music producers who are not musicians, but still create music.
- diggan 3y ago
  Honest question: Where is the line drawn between music producers and musicians? Playing instruments? Using samples?
  - chank 3y ago
    Areas of responsibility. The producer is the person ultimately responsible for the output. You can be a producer and not know a lick about good musicianship or play an instrument, but you have good taste and can use tools (samples, software, etc) to take what others have done to make something others will like/use/pay for/etc.
    - 0fox 3y ago
      You can be a software engineer and not know a lick about syntax or write algorithms, but you have good intuition and can use tools (LLMs, autocomplete, etc) to take what others have done to make something others will like/use/pay for/etc.
      - skydhash 3y ago
        Why use tools? Just be a product manager and you'd attain the same result.
    - diggan 3y ago
      If you can put together (tasteful) songs by using tools like samples and software, aren't you a musician then? Many would consider tools like DAWs instruments, so mastering one of those would be considered playing an instrument, at least for those people.
      - chank 3y ago
        > Many would consider tools like DAWs instruments... People can stretch the definition however they like since there is no hard acceptance of where the line is drawn. Sure the general term musician means a person who plays/creates music. A person who hums can be a musician. However in my own opinion, I disagree. DAWs are not instruments in themselves. The main functionality of a DAW is in recording, arranging, and mixing audio. They are the digital equivilent of a tape recorder and manual cut/splice process. They have evolved to include many software add-on emulations of instruments and packages around the production process: synths, pianos, mastering tools, additional recording tools, etc. Using a DAW does not make you a musician, but using provided instrumentation in a DAW can make you become a musician.
scj 3y ago
AI aside, does compiling using gcc with -S make someone an assembly programmer? Doing so helped me become a better assembly programmer.
PheonixPharts 3y ago
I think you're confusing artist with something specific like sculptor or painter. Some of the work people put into getting Stable Diffusion to create the results they want takes plenty of time and skill. But event then I would say that putting in time and skill is not strictly required to make art. You can absolutely be an artist using generative AI, but you of course wouldn't be a painter if you use generative AI. In this example you can be an application developer but still not a programmer.

reidjs 3y ago

Similarly, just because you can change your oil that doesn’t make you a mechanic. Making a one off program to solve a problem doesn’t warrant the title necessarily. Not that the title matters, though.

cgriswald 3y ago

Its hard to take meaning from your definition of programmer since you haven't defined code. As I understand 'code', it's just an interface for programming, not definitional. Consider the Python function 'max', which, given an iterable, will return the iterables biggest item. Now suppose I ask ChatGPT to generate a function (in whatever language you like) called 'max' that does the same thing and it returns a block of code that I copy and paste. In what way is Python's 'max' meaningfully different from ChatGPT's 'max'? It seems to me that these are essentially both just higher-level abstractions.

asddubs 3y ago
maybe you can argue the case that chatgpt is a programmer, but all the human is doing here is making requests and copying and pasting. is a manager a programmer? or, to put it another way, if everyone is a programmer, the word is meaningless.
- bobbiechen 3y ago
  Echoes of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room thought experiment here.
- piotrkaminski 3y ago
  Are you not a programmer because you use a compiler and "paste" its output into the executable? Or an assembler, instead of flipping bits by hand in memory? Are people making complex spreadsheets with hundreds of formulas not programmers? We've been raising the level of abstraction in code for decades and it looks like LLMs might just be the next level up. Yes, using LLMs will put more complex code within reach of more people but I'm sure it won't be nearly everyone, and I bet that it'll raise the ceiling of what the best programmers can do at the same time. Of course, we're free to redefine what "programmer" means at any time as well, if a new definition proves to be more useful.
  - mcluck 3y ago
    Fundamentally, I think it's a fuzzy matter of degrees. I go to the gym regularly but I am not an athlete. To me, an athlete is someone who dedicates themselves to the study, improvement, and mastery over their body, usually in a particular discipline. While everyone specializes, athletes also have general skills that the average person lacks. How do we define someone who is dedicated enough? I don't know. There's mountains of arguments about it across the internet but often the criteria is engaging in competition. To apply the same system to programming, one is a programmer if they dedicate themselves to the study and mastery over their computer, usually in a particular discipline. The disciplines of programming may be defined around the abstraction level. While everyone specializes, programmers also have general skills that the average person lacks. I would argue that the most important of those general skills is understanding the relationship between instructions, execution time, and memory usage as well using that knowledge to weigh different approaches. How do we separate a hobby programmer from someone who regurgitates AI responses with no understanding? I don't know. Maybe their ability to derive new answers if the AI didn't give them a correct answer. Words do have meaning and we should be careful not to degrade the meaning down to anyone who is capable of asking an AI questions but I doubt we'll ever have a non-fuzzy definition of programmer