4 ms·

What a tragedy that what used to be called "installing" is now mocked by the industry lobby as "sideloading", and what used to just be "visiting a web page" has

by mouse_ 3y ago

What a tragedy that what used to be called "installing" is now mocked by the industry lobby as "sideloading", and what used to just be "visiting a web page" has taken its rightful place. I have not and probably will not ever "install" a "web app". This is literally just a list of web sites. It's no more useful than Yahoo circa 1998 but now the bookmarks are on your desktop or homescreen rather than in your browser, where you're going to be taken anyways if you open one of them. Call me a cynical boomer.

presson 3y ago
You're a cynical boomer :-P But really, I think you'll change your mind at some point. There's some pretty cool stuff coming.
- mouse_ 3y ago
  Anything I wouldn't be able to do by just going to the website? :/
  - presson 3y ago
    Off the top of my head for ios - push notifications, offline use, optimized storage options (local storage not cleared after 7 days of no use), app-like ux (no browser controls), home screen icon for easy access, background audio (sound while app is closed). The real advantage is for devs who can build an app that feels like a native app, but with one codebase for distribution across OSs/devices, not having to pay the apple/google tax, and not dealing with app review.
    - _hzw 3y ago
      I made my web app into a PWA and even went so far as to polish the home screen icon and splash screen to make it look nice once installed. However, in the end, I use the browser much more frequently, simply because I can access the URL of the page and share it elsewhere.
      - presson 3y ago
        The beauty of the browser is that you can choose your own adventure. Being able to use or test apps in a browser tab is awesome, and it's up to the dev to choose a ux that showcases / informs the user of additional capabilities unlocked after adding to home screen. We're at the very early days of exploring what this ux can unlock.
    - aragonite 3y ago
      Also, on a desktop, some websites are just more naturally run in their own separate window than as a browser tab because you frequently need to switch to/from them: e.g. ChatGPT, Gmail, Google Voice/Keep, MDN docs, dictionaries. And you can put the PWAs in full sceen mode, whereas full-screen mode in a regular browser is almost always pointless ever since they took away tab indicators.
- thekingshorses 3y ago
  I m that cynical boomer. I use mostly apps like Whatsapp, and garage door opener. Can't use banks apps as you can only login to one account. Everything I do is on the browser. https://hn.premii.com https://hn.premii.com & https://reddit.premii.com https://reddit.premii.com - almost 10 years old, it still works. No need to update the framework or need someone's approval.
bko 3y ago
I like the idea of "installing" a web app that basically creates a bookmark to a webpage, because the alternative is installing an actual app. It's nice to have things all basically browser based as it gives the developer more control of the product and creates a single reasonable platform. I hate going to linkedin or Reddit or similar websites on mobile and them forcing me to use their app. It also breaks the dominance of centralized app stores like android and apple
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > It's nice to have things all basically browser based as it gives the developer more control of the product and creates a single reasonable platform. I get that. But as a user, I really hate browser-based applications and avoid them entirely unless I have no other option.
  - bko 3y ago
    What do you prefer? Native apps?
    - JohnFen 3y ago
      Yes. Although this depends a lot on the quality of the software, native apps tend to be much better in terms of UI and performance, and they tend to use less system resources -- sometimes a lot less.
      - holoduke 3y ago
        Nowadays i would argue that the css rendering speed is faster than the Android UI renderer which suffers from extreme complexity. Ios might be still faster, but also much more limited. A good SPA is indistinguishable from a native app.
        coder543 3y ago
        > A good SPA is indistinguishable from a native app. Exactly. It’s like CGI in movies. People always talk about how bad CGI is, without realizing just how much good CGI they never notice. https://youtu.be/bL6hp8BKB24 https://youtu.be/bL6hp8BKB24
tamimio 3y ago
Your average person now think of anything as an “app” or it should have one, even if it was just a wrapper for a browser, they would still install the app (1), so I think OP is in the right direction, nothing will change from the user side but much better for the developer one. (1) Reminds me of this :) https://files.catbox.moe/36o4jr.jpeg https://files.catbox.moe/36o4jr.jpeg
- presson 3y ago
  This is our hope. If we can help smooth out the messaging / install process, once a PWA is installed most apps will feel identical to a native app for most users. We used to say "web apps are apps" but now we just say "apps are apps" :-P
seabass-labrax 3y ago
There is one VERY big difference between PWAs and Yahoo circa 1998: you can use PWAs without a network connection, with full interactivity. This is really important for me, and probably for anyone who travels frequently, is on a metered internet connection, or just lives in a location with poor infrastructure. Yahoo did and still does require you to be connected to the internet, and whether that's on a 2400 baud dial-up connection or a 5G wireless link, it will still cost money and be less reliable in places.

by mouse_ 3y ago

presson 3y ago

You're a cynical boomer :-P But really, I think you'll change your mind at some point. There's some pretty cool stuff coming.

mouse_ 3y ago
Anything I wouldn't be able to do by just going to the website? :/
- presson 3y ago
  Off the top of my head for ios - push notifications, offline use, optimized storage options (local storage not cleared after 7 days of no use), app-like ux (no browser controls), home screen icon for easy access, background audio (sound while app is closed). The real advantage is for devs who can build an app that feels like a native app, but with one codebase for distribution across OSs/devices, not having to pay the apple/google tax, and not dealing with app review.
  - _hzw 3y ago
    I made my web app into a PWA and even went so far as to polish the home screen icon and splash screen to make it look nice once installed. However, in the end, I use the browser much more frequently, simply because I can access the URL of the page and share it elsewhere.
    - presson 3y ago
      The beauty of the browser is that you can choose your own adventure. Being able to use or test apps in a browser tab is awesome, and it's up to the dev to choose a ux that showcases / informs the user of additional capabilities unlocked after adding to home screen. We're at the very early days of exploring what this ux can unlock.
  - aragonite 3y ago
    Also, on a desktop, some websites are just more naturally run in their own separate window than as a browser tab because you frequently need to switch to/from them: e.g. ChatGPT, Gmail, Google Voice/Keep, MDN docs, dictionaries. And you can put the PWAs in full sceen mode, whereas full-screen mode in a regular browser is almost always pointless ever since they took away tab indicators.
thekingshorses 3y ago
I m that cynical boomer. I use mostly apps like Whatsapp, and garage door opener. Can't use banks apps as you can only login to one account. Everything I do is on the browser. https://hn.premii.com https://hn.premii.com & https://reddit.premii.com https://reddit.premii.com - almost 10 years old, it still works. No need to update the framework or need someone's approval.

bko 3y ago

I like the idea of "installing" a web app that basically creates a bookmark to a webpage, because the alternative is installing an actual app. It's nice to have things all basically browser based as it gives the developer more control of the product and creates a single reasonable platform. I hate going to linkedin or Reddit or similar websites on mobile and them forcing me to use their app. It also breaks the dominance of centralized app stores like android and apple

JohnFen 3y ago
> It's nice to have things all basically browser based as it gives the developer more control of the product and creates a single reasonable platform. I get that. But as a user, I really hate browser-based applications and avoid them entirely unless I have no other option.
- bko 3y ago
  What do you prefer? Native apps?
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    Yes. Although this depends a lot on the quality of the software, native apps tend to be much better in terms of UI and performance, and they tend to use less system resources -- sometimes a lot less.
    - holoduke 3y ago
      Nowadays i would argue that the css rendering speed is faster than the Android UI renderer which suffers from extreme complexity. Ios might be still faster, but also much more limited. A good SPA is indistinguishable from a native app.
      - coder543 3y ago
        > A good SPA is indistinguishable from a native app. Exactly. It’s like CGI in movies. People always talk about how bad CGI is, without realizing just how much good CGI they never notice. https://youtu.be/bL6hp8BKB24 https://youtu.be/bL6hp8BKB24

tamimio 3y ago

Your average person now think of anything as an “app” or it should have one, even if it was just a wrapper for a browser, they would still install the app (1), so I think OP is in the right direction, nothing will change from the user side but much better for the developer one. (1) Reminds me of this :) https://files.catbox.moe/36o4jr.jpeg https://files.catbox.moe/36o4jr.jpeg

presson 3y ago
This is our hope. If we can help smooth out the messaging / install process, once a PWA is installed most apps will feel identical to a native app for most users. We used to say "web apps are apps" but now we just say "apps are apps" :-P

seabass-labrax 3y ago

There is one VERY big difference between PWAs and Yahoo circa 1998: you can use PWAs without a network connection, with full interactivity. This is really important for me, and probably for anyone who travels frequently, is on a metered internet connection, or just lives in a location with poor infrastructure. Yahoo did and still does require you to be connected to the internet, and whether that's on a 2400 baud dial-up connection or a 5G wireless link, it will still cost money and be less reliable in places.