4 ms·

Related to timekeeping is the NIST Randomness Beacon: https://csrc.nist.gov/projects/interoperable-randomness-beacons/beacon-20 https://csrc.nist.gov/projects/i

Related to timekeeping is the NIST Randomness Beacon: https://csrc.nist.gov/projects/interoperable-randomness-beacons/beacon-20 https://csrc.nist.gov/projects/interoperable-randomness-beac... "This prototype implementation generates full-entropy bit-strings and posts them in blocks of 512 bits every 60 seconds. Each such value is sequence-numbered, time-stamped and signed, and includes the hash of the previous value to chain the sequence of values together and prevent even the source to retroactively change an output package without being detected." People here were joking about putting time on the blockchain, and, well, NIST is already doing it.

sandpaper26 3y ago
Can someone give an example use case of this? I'm not sure I understand why a very public long string of random characters on a block chain is useful, except as a way to prove an event didn't happen prior to a certain time
- nonameiguess 3y ago
  The draft of the version upgrade explains the possible uses of this: https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/ir/2019/NIST.IR.8213-draft.pdf https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/ir/2019/NIST.IR.8213-draft... Mostly, it's so the public can verify events that were supposed to be random really were random. The executive summary gives plenty of examples, but think of a pro sports draft lottery. Fans always think those are rigged. They could simply use these outputs and a hashing function that maps a 512-bit block to some set with cardinality equal to the number of slots and pre-assign slots to participating teams based on their draft weight. Then fans could verify using this public API that the draw the league claims came up randomly really did come up randomly. People always think polls are rigged. This could be used to publicly produce random population samples for polling. This was also used to prove a Bell inequality experiment worked with no loopholes.
  - codetrotter 3y ago
    If they want to believe the polls are rigged, won’t they just assume that the NIST random data is “rigged” as well.
  - somat 3y ago
    The mob "numbers game" Which my understanding was a sort of lottery used low digits of closing share prices to find the winning number. which solved a few of the same problems. It was an unaffiliated third party generating the numbers with another completely different unaffiliated third party (the newspaper) distributing them. so theoretically every one trusted them as fair numbers.
- fanf2 3y ago
  See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37783764 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37783764
throwaway89201 3y ago
> People here were joking about putting time on the blockchain, and, well, NIST is already doing it. It's not a blockchain, but a single writer Merkle DAG. No consensus necessary. Much like a git repository with a single author.
- waterheater 3y ago
  >It's not a blockchain, but a single writer Merkle DAG. Hmm. Just because something's a Merkle DAG doesn't make it useable on the Internet. A single-writer blockchain, perhaps?
- SV_BubbleTime 3y ago
  Oh… so you are calling a database a “block chain”.
  - r3trohack3r 3y ago
    A blockchain is a chain of blocks. Do you have another definition? Colloquially, it often refers to a consensus algorithm paired with a chain of blocks. Bitcoin’s innovation wasn’t a blockchain, it was a proof-of-work backed consensus algorithm that allowed a group of adversarial peers to agree on the state of a shared blockchain datastructure.
    - waterheater 3y ago
      According to the dictionary [1], a blockchain is "a digital database containing information (such as records of financial transactions) that can be simultaneously used and shared within a large decentralized, publicly accessible network" The distinction here might be with a decentralized network. [1] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/blockchain https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/blockchain
      - ipaddr 3y ago
        Merriam is incorrect
eternityforest 3y ago
I always wondered why nobody is using that as the root of a P2P randomness system. It would be very useful to have a trusted source of time, with a few keys that are meant to never change, that anyone can rebroadcast. We could have zero configuration clocks that get the time from the nearest phone or computer without any manual setup!

sandpaper26 3y ago

Can someone give an example use case of this? I'm not sure I understand why a very public long string of random characters on a block chain is useful, except as a way to prove an event didn't happen prior to a certain time

nonameiguess 3y ago
The draft of the version upgrade explains the possible uses of this: https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/ir/2019/NIST.IR.8213-draft.pdf https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/ir/2019/NIST.IR.8213-draft... Mostly, it's so the public can verify events that were supposed to be random really were random. The executive summary gives plenty of examples, but think of a pro sports draft lottery. Fans always think those are rigged. They could simply use these outputs and a hashing function that maps a 512-bit block to some set with cardinality equal to the number of slots and pre-assign slots to participating teams based on their draft weight. Then fans could verify using this public API that the draw the league claims came up randomly really did come up randomly. People always think polls are rigged. This could be used to publicly produce random population samples for polling. This was also used to prove a Bell inequality experiment worked with no loopholes.
- codetrotter 3y ago
  If they want to believe the polls are rigged, won’t they just assume that the NIST random data is “rigged” as well.
- somat 3y ago
  The mob "numbers game" Which my understanding was a sort of lottery used low digits of closing share prices to find the winning number. which solved a few of the same problems. It was an unaffiliated third party generating the numbers with another completely different unaffiliated third party (the newspaper) distributing them. so theoretically every one trusted them as fair numbers.
fanf2 3y ago
See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37783764 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37783764

throwaway89201 3y ago

> People here were joking about putting time on the blockchain, and, well, NIST is already doing it. It's not a blockchain, but a single writer Merkle DAG. No consensus necessary. Much like a git repository with a single author.

waterheater 3y ago
>It's not a blockchain, but a single writer Merkle DAG. Hmm. Just because something's a Merkle DAG doesn't make it useable on the Internet. A single-writer blockchain, perhaps?
SV_BubbleTime 3y ago
Oh… so you are calling a database a “block chain”.
- r3trohack3r 3y ago
  A blockchain is a chain of blocks. Do you have another definition? Colloquially, it often refers to a consensus algorithm paired with a chain of blocks. Bitcoin’s innovation wasn’t a blockchain, it was a proof-of-work backed consensus algorithm that allowed a group of adversarial peers to agree on the state of a shared blockchain datastructure.
  - waterheater 3y ago
    According to the dictionary [1], a blockchain is "a digital database containing information (such as records of financial transactions) that can be simultaneously used and shared within a large decentralized, publicly accessible network" The distinction here might be with a decentralized network. [1] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/blockchain https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/blockchain
    - ipaddr 3y ago
      Merriam is incorrect

eternityforest 3y ago

I always wondered why nobody is using that as the root of a P2P randomness system. It would be very useful to have a trusted source of time, with a few keys that are meant to never change, that anyone can rebroadcast. We could have zero configuration clocks that get the time from the nearest phone or computer without any manual setup!