5 ms·

Yep, Gilad Bracha, Philip Wadler, Martin Odersky... all drunken, retarded monkeys.

by spacemanaki 15y ago

jrockway 15y ago
So you're saying that type erasure makes programming easier and less error prone?
- ootachi 15y ago
  What choice did they have? Either break compatibility, or use type erasure.
  - kamaal 15y ago
    Oracle's primary concern isn't to rewrite Java or to spend resources to make Java awesome enough to compete with the latest stuff that is coming. Their fundamental concern is to milk Java as much and as long as they can to drive their sales for Oracle DB and associated business products. And that makes perfect sense too, they are in business to make money anything else and they won't be doing their job properly. Don't you see what has become of Sun Microsystems? They were making awesome stuff by the day for somebody else's profits. Oracle is not going to make the same mistake again. Java is oracle's strategic investment in using that as a leverage to drive sales else where. And looking at their segment, its mean't mostly for large corporate programmers and not hacker, start ups and alike. I bet IBM makes sufficient contribution to COBOL still just to keep their mainframe sales alive and not because they want COBOL to be awesome enough to rule the world. Similarly Oracle's contributions and investments to Java are going to be for driving their sales not for sake of making Java awesome.
    - spacemanaki 15y ago
      I basically agree with almost everything you wrote here and in the other long one you posted replying to me up thread. But I downvoted you because this has almost nothing to do with ootachi's comment about the realities that the designers of generics had to cope with. You're just regurgitating the same criticisms that has been leveled against Java for years.
      - kamaal 15y ago
        It has a answer to ootachi's comment. >>What choice did they have? The only choice Oracle has is to invest in Java in areas that is going to help them sell their products. That is the only choice Oracle has.
        spacemanaki 15y ago
        > It has a answer to ootachi's comment. ootachi was was referring to the designers of Java generics, who were working sometime before Java 1.5 was released in 2004, long before Oracle bought Sun.
- spacemanaki 15y ago
  No, did I say anything like that? I was merely bemused that you called the designers of generics "drunk retarded monkeys", when they are clearly anything but, based on their work before and after. Name calling isn't really helpful. I don't like Java either, but there are a lot of very smart people who worked on it, and many of them labored under constraints I do not envy. That's all.
kamaal 15y ago
The problem really isn't with a particular component in Java. The problem with Java is, Java came as a quick relief to people who had problems with managing memory themselves. Java solved what seemed to be the most pressing problem at that time. Times have changed, today I have completely forgotten some thing called as 'memory management by programmer', today its a given that a modern language today should do that by default. The problem with Java today is how big and bloated it has become while it doesn't solve fundamental problems programmers face. Its growingly becoming impossible to program in Java without an IDE. Only Java ninjas can probably program Java with a Text editor. Its XML mess all over the place. Now it takes several tens of lines of code to do trivial file operations and other trivial tasks. This problem was long solved with languages like Perl and Python around 20 years back. Its almost two decades and Java still hasn't caught up. There are still no practical lambdas and good functional programming capabilities. The issue is something like this. By asking everything to become an API of some sort and writing so many method calls both my unit tests and exception handling code bloats like crazy. My eyes cringe every time I open a Java class file and nearly 60% of the code in there is either try/catch statements or some form get/set methods. The code to boilerplate ratio is too high. And it just doesn't feel like a language that belongs to the 2010's. Java and its community also promotes heavy use of XML's often used as bad replacements for RDBMS, this leads to building of small buggy and wrongly built DSL equivalents of small parts of SQL all the time. The path from now is not the make the language bloat like crazy and then provide IDE's to handle that. It is to make the language syntax intelligent enough to take care of many problems you have to other wise worry about. If you see the whole concept of Lisp and other extensible languages like Perl are all about. To provide forms of extensibility that solve the code scalability problem. And lastly and unfortunately the Java market is full of substandard programmers whose life begins and ends inside eclipse. A manager or a pointy haired boss might prefer Java for hiring cheap programmers and the 'Oracle factor'. But Java is dead for Start up's and other sexy glorious projects.
- gsharm 15y ago
  What are your thoughts on C#?
- mark_l_watson 15y ago
  I hear you re: code bloat with too much boilerplate. I stopped using get/set methods years ago in favor of public instance variables. Yeah, I understand the potential problems with kicking encapsulation to the street and into the gutter (I have written several Java books and I have done many projects in Java, so I am not a noob). I have also started to favor using unchecked exceptions - that also makes code a lot shorter. This is also Controversial.

Yep, Gilad Bracha, Philip Wadler, Martin Odersky... all drunken, retarded monkeys.

jrockway 15y ago

So you're saying that type erasure makes programming easier and less error prone?

ootachi 15y ago
What choice did they have? Either break compatibility, or use type erasure.
- kamaal 15y ago
  Oracle's primary concern isn't to rewrite Java or to spend resources to make Java awesome enough to compete with the latest stuff that is coming. Their fundamental concern is to milk Java as much and as long as they can to drive their sales for Oracle DB and associated business products. And that makes perfect sense too, they are in business to make money anything else and they won't be doing their job properly. Don't you see what has become of Sun Microsystems? They were making awesome stuff by the day for somebody else's profits. Oracle is not going to make the same mistake again. Java is oracle's strategic investment in using that as a leverage to drive sales else where. And looking at their segment, its mean't mostly for large corporate programmers and not hacker, start ups and alike. I bet IBM makes sufficient contribution to COBOL still just to keep their mainframe sales alive and not because they want COBOL to be awesome enough to rule the world. Similarly Oracle's contributions and investments to Java are going to be for driving their sales not for sake of making Java awesome.
  - spacemanaki 15y ago
    I basically agree with almost everything you wrote here and in the other long one you posted replying to me up thread. But I downvoted you because this has almost nothing to do with ootachi's comment about the realities that the designers of generics had to cope with. You're just regurgitating the same criticisms that has been leveled against Java for years.
    - kamaal 15y ago
      It has a answer to ootachi's comment. >>What choice did they have? The only choice Oracle has is to invest in Java in areas that is going to help them sell their products. That is the only choice Oracle has.
      - spacemanaki 15y ago
        > It has a answer to ootachi's comment. ootachi was was referring to the designers of Java generics, who were working sometime before Java 1.5 was released in 2004, long before Oracle bought Sun.
spacemanaki 15y ago
No, did I say anything like that? I was merely bemused that you called the designers of generics "drunk retarded monkeys", when they are clearly anything but, based on their work before and after. Name calling isn't really helpful. I don't like Java either, but there are a lot of very smart people who worked on it, and many of them labored under constraints I do not envy. That's all.

kamaal 15y ago

The problem really isn't with a particular component in Java. The problem with Java is, Java came as a quick relief to people who had problems with managing memory themselves. Java solved what seemed to be the most pressing problem at that time. Times have changed, today I have completely forgotten some thing called as 'memory management by programmer', today its a given that a modern language today should do that by default. The problem with Java today is how big and bloated it has become while it doesn't solve fundamental problems programmers face. Its growingly becoming impossible to program in Java without an IDE. Only Java ninjas can probably program Java with a Text editor. Its XML mess all over the place. Now it takes several tens of lines of code to do trivial file operations and other trivial tasks. This problem was long solved with languages like Perl and Python around 20 years back. Its almost two decades and Java still hasn't caught up. There are still no practical lambdas and good functional programming capabilities. The issue is something like this. By asking everything to become an API of some sort and writing so many method calls both my unit tests and exception handling code bloats like crazy. My eyes cringe every time I open a Java class file and nearly 60% of the code in there is either try/catch statements or some form get/set methods. The code to boilerplate ratio is too high. And it just doesn't feel like a language that belongs to the 2010's. Java and its community also promotes heavy use of XML's often used as bad replacements for RDBMS, this leads to building of small buggy and wrongly built DSL equivalents of small parts of SQL all the time. The path from now is not the make the language bloat like crazy and then provide IDE's to handle that. It is to make the language syntax intelligent enough to take care of many problems you have to other wise worry about. If you see the whole concept of Lisp and other extensible languages like Perl are all about. To provide forms of extensibility that solve the code scalability problem. And lastly and unfortunately the Java market is full of substandard programmers whose life begins and ends inside eclipse. A manager or a pointy haired boss might prefer Java for hiring cheap programmers and the 'Oracle factor'. But Java is dead for Start up's and other sexy glorious projects.

gsharm 15y ago
What are your thoughts on C#?
mark_l_watson 15y ago
I hear you re: code bloat with too much boilerplate. I stopped using get/set methods years ago in favor of public instance variables. Yeah, I understand the potential problems with kicking encapsulation to the street and into the gutter (I have written several Java books and I have done many projects in Java, so I am not a noob). I have also started to favor using unchecked exceptions - that also makes code a lot shorter. This is also Controversial.