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Did you actually read the article you're ranting about? They repeatedly and specifically say they have no problem with users applying theming to applications, a

Did you actually read the article you're ranting about? They repeatedly and specifically say they have no problem with users applying theming to applications, as long as they report issues to the theme developer, and not to upstream. Their actual ask is for distros is to stop applying theming by default, which is entirely reasonable and sensible to me: you more or less guarantee that some apps will arrive out of the box in a broken state, and people will not realize that it's not the fault of the application developer. The issue of distros breaking applications and giving upstream developers unnecessary headaches and noise because of it is one that goes way beyond themes. Recall jwz's ugly fights with Debian about the Xscreensaver warning. There's not a perfect solution, but distros can at least try and not make the problem worse for the sake of "brand identity", which is what this article is actually complaining about.

chriswarbo 3y ago
> There's not a perfect solution, but distros can at least try and not make the problem worse for the sake of "brand identity", which is what this article is actually complaining about. Erm, the page literally argues in favour of "brand identity" (only for themselves, of course!)
II2II 3y ago
While I agree that users shouldn't be reporting breakage caused by distro maintainers, those maintainers have the right to modify and distribute changes in accordance to the license. There are also many instances where these changes will be better aligned with the desires of end users. It is not simply a matter of the distros brand identity.
- Analemma_ 3y ago
  > those maintainers have the right to modify and distribute changes in accordance to the license. Sure, but this is a "just because you can, doesn't mean you should" situation. The authors of this blog post are asking distro maintainers to not do it, and IMO giving good reasons. > While I agree that users shouldn't be reporting breakage caused by distro maintainers, One of the reasons I brought up the jwz-vs-Debian Xscreensaver kerfuffle from a few years ago is because it was a great example of how it's not sufficient to just wave your hands and say "well, users should be filing bugs against the distro, not against upstream." Yes, they should, but empirically they don't and they probably never will. We need to figure out a solution for the real world as it exists, where upstream maintainers have to waste time and energy on bug reports that have nothing to do with them. OSS maintenance is enough of a headache as it is with real bugs that are actually your fault. It feels both against the spirit of OSS, and just plain unsustainable, to pile onto volunteers the hassle of dealing with users who are angry at a change their distro made.
Zambyte 3y ago
> Their actual ask is for distros is to stop applying theming by default Which is exactly what the person you are replying to is highlighting. See freedom 3 here[0]. > There's not a perfect solution, but distros can at least try and not make the problem worse for the sake of "brand identity" This website is explicitly (!) about valuing the "brand identity" of applications over that of distributions. Both are equally unimportant. Write software. Distribute software. Change software. Distribute changed software. Do it all. [0] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/philosophy.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/philosophy.html

chriswarbo 3y ago

> There's not a perfect solution, but distros can at least try and not make the problem worse for the sake of "brand identity", which is what this article is actually complaining about. Erm, the page literally argues in favour of "brand identity" (only for themselves, of course!)

II2II 3y ago

While I agree that users shouldn't be reporting breakage caused by distro maintainers, those maintainers have the right to modify and distribute changes in accordance to the license. There are also many instances where these changes will be better aligned with the desires of end users. It is not simply a matter of the distros brand identity.

Analemma_ 3y ago
> those maintainers have the right to modify and distribute changes in accordance to the license. Sure, but this is a "just because you can, doesn't mean you should" situation. The authors of this blog post are asking distro maintainers to not do it, and IMO giving good reasons. > While I agree that users shouldn't be reporting breakage caused by distro maintainers, One of the reasons I brought up the jwz-vs-Debian Xscreensaver kerfuffle from a few years ago is because it was a great example of how it's not sufficient to just wave your hands and say "well, users should be filing bugs against the distro, not against upstream." Yes, they should, but empirically they don't and they probably never will. We need to figure out a solution for the real world as it exists, where upstream maintainers have to waste time and energy on bug reports that have nothing to do with them. OSS maintenance is enough of a headache as it is with real bugs that are actually your fault. It feels both against the spirit of OSS, and just plain unsustainable, to pile onto volunteers the hassle of dealing with users who are angry at a change their distro made.

Zambyte 3y ago

> Their actual ask is for distros is to stop applying theming by default Which is exactly what the person you are replying to is highlighting. See freedom 3 here[0]. > There's not a perfect solution, but distros can at least try and not make the problem worse for the sake of "brand identity" This website is explicitly (!) about valuing the "brand identity" of applications over that of distributions. Both are equally unimportant. Write software. Distribute software. Change software. Distribute changed software. Do it all. [0] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/philosophy.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/philosophy.html