4 ms·

Is it not a simpler explanation that Greece simply did a better job of disseminating its own literature than prior cultures? My understanding is that the “thro

by gen220 3y ago

Is it not a simpler explanation that Greece simply did a better job of disseminating its own literature than prior cultures? My understanding is that the “through line” of modern scientific progress begins in Greece because that’s where “trivially-legible to contemporary scholars” written history began. Like, we always knew that it didn’t start with Ancient Greece (the Greeks themselves mention this), but because abundant primary sources prior to Ancient Greece don’t exist, there isn’t much we can do other than light a candle for their sake and use its light to read their thoughts as filtered through Plato, etc.

digging 3y ago
> Is it not a simpler explanation that Greece simply did a better job of disseminating its own literature than prior cultures? That's a simpler explanation but it's not necessarily right. What we can say for sure is that Greek thought has been easier for Western scientists and pseudo-scientists to learn. Availability and language are parts of that for sure. Geography is, too - it's easier for Europeans to excavate Europe than Iran. But what does it mean to say "the Greeks" disseminated their knowledge better when virtually all of what we have comes from Roman citizens living centuries later?
- gen220 3y ago
  > But what does it mean to say "the Greeks" disseminated their knowledge better when virtually all of what we have comes from Roman citizens living centuries later? That Greek knowledge and culture survived the collapse of their prominence? Similar to the Romans after them and Babylonians before them. Greek had been a lingua franca in the major ports of future empires for centuries [1], and Greek remained a spoken and written language in the Byzantine empire (the same was not true of ancient Egyptian or Babylonian – which were supplanted by Greek or other Aramaic languages during the hellenistic period). I think at least as much credit is owed to the inheritors of Greek culture (Romans, Byzantines, the various Arabic empires), for preserving source material and references. But I think Greece was seen as the original "filter" for civilization because it was both "successful" and comparatively extroverted to the great civilizations that came before. Basically, it's what you said in your middle paragraph – wide availability, accessibility of language and culture. In other words, "better dissemination". :) [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_colonisation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_colonisation
  - digging 3y ago
    > I think at least as much credit is owed to the inheritors of Greek culture (Romans, Byzantines, the various Arabic empires), for preserving source material and references. That's what I'm saying, though. Preservation is the work of the preservers. Many of the great thinkers of Greece didn't preserve a single word. Someone else did. Often other Greeks, often Romans (who obviously spoke Greek as you say, because they believed it to be a superior language). > wide availability, accessibility of language and culture. In other words, "better dissemination". But B is a subset of A here. Not all of those facets that I mentioned are due to the Greeks themselves, not even indirectly. Sometimes, Western civilization sees "The Greeks" as a progenitor civilization because... we believe they're a progenitor civilization. It's a tradition to believe so, and it may well have started by mistake or for reasons of xenophobia or other bad motivations.

by gen220 3y ago

digging 3y ago

> Is it not a simpler explanation that Greece simply did a better job of disseminating its own literature than prior cultures? That's a simpler explanation but it's not necessarily right. What we can say for sure is that Greek thought has been easier for Western scientists and pseudo-scientists to learn. Availability and language are parts of that for sure. Geography is, too - it's easier for Europeans to excavate Europe than Iran. But what does it mean to say "the Greeks" disseminated their knowledge better when virtually all of what we have comes from Roman citizens living centuries later?

gen220 3y ago
> But what does it mean to say "the Greeks" disseminated their knowledge better when virtually all of what we have comes from Roman citizens living centuries later? That Greek knowledge and culture survived the collapse of their prominence? Similar to the Romans after them and Babylonians before them. Greek had been a lingua franca in the major ports of future empires for centuries [1], and Greek remained a spoken and written language in the Byzantine empire (the same was not true of ancient Egyptian or Babylonian – which were supplanted by Greek or other Aramaic languages during the hellenistic period). I think at least as much credit is owed to the inheritors of Greek culture (Romans, Byzantines, the various Arabic empires), for preserving source material and references. But I think Greece was seen as the original "filter" for civilization because it was both "successful" and comparatively extroverted to the great civilizations that came before. Basically, it's what you said in your middle paragraph – wide availability, accessibility of language and culture. In other words, "better dissemination". :) [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_colonisation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_colonisation
- digging 3y ago
  > I think at least as much credit is owed to the inheritors of Greek culture (Romans, Byzantines, the various Arabic empires), for preserving source material and references. That's what I'm saying, though. Preservation is the work of the preservers. Many of the great thinkers of Greece didn't preserve a single word. Someone else did. Often other Greeks, often Romans (who obviously spoke Greek as you say, because they believed it to be a superior language). > wide availability, accessibility of language and culture. In other words, "better dissemination". But B is a subset of A here. Not all of those facets that I mentioned are due to the Greeks themselves, not even indirectly. Sometimes, Western civilization sees "The Greeks" as a progenitor civilization because... we believe they're a progenitor civilization. It's a tradition to believe so, and it may well have started by mistake or for reasons of xenophobia or other bad motivations.