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> The engine works by allowing developers to use special interfaces and a high-performance scripting language called KL for performance critical parts of the co

by udp 15y ago

> The engine works by allowing developers to use special interfaces and a high-performance scripting language called KL for performance critical parts of the code I haven't looked into it, but this suggests it's not actually JavaScript (as the title implies) but rather some new language that gets the speed boost.

cglace 15y ago
So its like a cython for javascript?
- FabricPaul 15y ago
  not really - Fabric is integrated with dynamic languages, we 're not interpreting JS or Python (we work with both languages). Fabric is basically a high-performance threading engine that you can call from your dynamic language - the key element is that the operator code (KL) enables the high-performance. This KL is only required for the operators, and is not as difficult or complex as C/C++ to use - it's designed purely for this task. A regular Python or JavaScript developer can pick it up.
  - axiak 15y ago
    I think you've just described cython. A higher-than-c level language that trivially binds to the higher target language.
  - FabricPaul 15y ago
    Replying to comment below (can't see a reply button) - please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see anything about Cython handling multi-threading and I don't see anything about dynamic compilation on target. I just had a flick through their documentation, so if this stuff is in there then I missed it...
    - maxerickson 15y ago
      There is a cython mechanism for compiling code on demand (pyximport), but it is only transparent to the user, it isn't especially dynamic. There are also some parallel features: http://wiki.cython.org/enhancements/prange http://wiki.cython.org/enhancements/prange
      - phtaylor 15y ago
        Multi-threaded software development is a huge challenge facing software developers. The model we have taken enables massive amounts of computation to be distributed across all available cores. The combination of task based parallelism, and data based parallelism, orchestrated using a dependency graph, enable our scheduler to very efficiently manage the CPU(and in the GPU in the future). This model is used in high end video game engines today to leverage multi-core CPUs effectively. We make this programming model available in Python and JavaScript. http://s09.idav.ucdavis.edu/talks/04-JAndersson-ParallelFrostbite-Siggraph09.pdf http://s09.idav.ucdavis.edu/talks/04-JAndersson-ParallelFros... A single call from Python/JavaScript can kick off hundreds of tasks (written in KL) to be scheduled and executed.
  - masklinn 15y ago
    > Fabric is integrated with dynamic languages, we 're not interpreting JS or Python (we work with both languages). Neither does Cython. > Fabric is basically a high-performance threading engine that you can call from your dynamic language Well Cython is for writing Python modules, so it's integrated with Python only. But that's pretty much it. > the key element is that the operator code (KL) enables the high-performance. This KL is only required for the operators, and is not as difficult or complex as C/C++ to use - it's designed purely for this task. So's Cython. Cython compile to a native module, that native module is simply imported and used from regular Python code. > A regular Python or JavaScript developer can pick it up. A regular Python developer really shouldn't have any trouble picking up cython.
    - FabricPaul 15y ago
      as per my other comment: "please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see anything about Cython handling multi-threading and I don't see anything about dynamic compilation on target. I just had a flick through their documentation, so if this stuff is in there then I missed it..."
      - phtaylor 15y ago
        When we designed Fabric, our goal was not to speed up Python, or JavaScript. Our goal was to build high performance multi-threaded applications on top or dynamic languages. Fabric is for software developers who need to build high performance software, and also use dynamic languages. V8 will continue to speed up, and may even get close to the speed of native code. But in that time, CPUs architectures will continue to gain more cores, widening the gap between multi-threaded code, and dynamic code.
ramy_d 15y ago
i'm seeing this page from their site: http://documentation.fabric-engine.com/latest/FabricEngine-KLProgrammingGuide.html#introduction http://documentation.fabric-engine.com/latest/FabricEngine-K... the KL language looks statically typed at a glance. So what's the advantage exactly?
- FabricPaul 15y ago
  we dynamically compile on target (using LLVM), and the developer doesn't have to manage things like pointers.
  - alexchamberlain 15y ago
    What's wrong with pointers? I quite enjoy working with pointers - they are a very simple concept.
    - FabricPaul 15y ago
      Using pointers adds a certain amount of complexity, and they also introduce the possibility of security problems. This was particularly important for the work we were doing on the browser plug-in. For the type of work that developers use KL for, they aren't needed.
      - d1plo1d 15y ago
        On that topic, I wasn't able to find any information on the security of Fabric or the sandboxing it uses. Short of going through the source code is there documentation on this topic? NACL, which is only somewhat similar in that it runs native code via the browser, went to great lengths to demonstrate how their sandboxing worked to address the FUD of running native code in the browser. I have a very similar FUD about executing Fabric LLVM code from arbitrary websites. To clarify where I'm coming from, I am a javascript / ruby dev and although I have worked in C I do not claim to understand the inner workings of LLVM or have ever worked with it. If there is an implicit reason why building on LLVM would sandbox code written in fabric it is not implicit to me. I doubt I am alone in this and would greatly appreciate an explanation of Fabric's sandboxing.

by udp 15y ago

cglace 15y ago

So its like a cython for javascript?

FabricPaul 15y ago
not really - Fabric is integrated with dynamic languages, we 're not interpreting JS or Python (we work with both languages). Fabric is basically a high-performance threading engine that you can call from your dynamic language - the key element is that the operator code (KL) enables the high-performance. This KL is only required for the operators, and is not as difficult or complex as C/C++ to use - it's designed purely for this task. A regular Python or JavaScript developer can pick it up.
- axiak 15y ago
  I think you've just described cython. A higher-than-c level language that trivially binds to the higher target language.
- FabricPaul 15y ago
  Replying to comment below (can't see a reply button) - please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see anything about Cython handling multi-threading and I don't see anything about dynamic compilation on target. I just had a flick through their documentation, so if this stuff is in there then I missed it...
  - maxerickson 15y ago
    There is a cython mechanism for compiling code on demand (pyximport), but it is only transparent to the user, it isn't especially dynamic. There are also some parallel features: http://wiki.cython.org/enhancements/prange http://wiki.cython.org/enhancements/prange
    - phtaylor 15y ago
      Multi-threaded software development is a huge challenge facing software developers. The model we have taken enables massive amounts of computation to be distributed across all available cores. The combination of task based parallelism, and data based parallelism, orchestrated using a dependency graph, enable our scheduler to very efficiently manage the CPU(and in the GPU in the future). This model is used in high end video game engines today to leverage multi-core CPUs effectively. We make this programming model available in Python and JavaScript. http://s09.idav.ucdavis.edu/talks/04-JAndersson-ParallelFrostbite-Siggraph09.pdf http://s09.idav.ucdavis.edu/talks/04-JAndersson-ParallelFros... A single call from Python/JavaScript can kick off hundreds of tasks (written in KL) to be scheduled and executed.
- masklinn 15y ago
  > Fabric is integrated with dynamic languages, we 're not interpreting JS or Python (we work with both languages). Neither does Cython. > Fabric is basically a high-performance threading engine that you can call from your dynamic language Well Cython is for writing Python modules, so it's integrated with Python only. But that's pretty much it. > the key element is that the operator code (KL) enables the high-performance. This KL is only required for the operators, and is not as difficult or complex as C/C++ to use - it's designed purely for this task. So's Cython. Cython compile to a native module, that native module is simply imported and used from regular Python code. > A regular Python or JavaScript developer can pick it up. A regular Python developer really shouldn't have any trouble picking up cython.
  - FabricPaul 15y ago
    as per my other comment: "please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see anything about Cython handling multi-threading and I don't see anything about dynamic compilation on target. I just had a flick through their documentation, so if this stuff is in there then I missed it..."
    - phtaylor 15y ago
      When we designed Fabric, our goal was not to speed up Python, or JavaScript. Our goal was to build high performance multi-threaded applications on top or dynamic languages. Fabric is for software developers who need to build high performance software, and also use dynamic languages. V8 will continue to speed up, and may even get close to the speed of native code. But in that time, CPUs architectures will continue to gain more cores, widening the gap between multi-threaded code, and dynamic code.

ramy_d 15y ago

i'm seeing this page from their site: http://documentation.fabric-engine.com/latest/FabricEngine-KLProgrammingGuide.html#introduction http://documentation.fabric-engine.com/latest/FabricEngine-K... the KL language looks statically typed at a glance. So what's the advantage exactly?

FabricPaul 15y ago
we dynamically compile on target (using LLVM), and the developer doesn't have to manage things like pointers.
- alexchamberlain 15y ago
  What's wrong with pointers? I quite enjoy working with pointers - they are a very simple concept.
  - FabricPaul 15y ago
    Using pointers adds a certain amount of complexity, and they also introduce the possibility of security problems. This was particularly important for the work we were doing on the browser plug-in. For the type of work that developers use KL for, they aren't needed.
    - d1plo1d 15y ago
      On that topic, I wasn't able to find any information on the security of Fabric or the sandboxing it uses. Short of going through the source code is there documentation on this topic? NACL, which is only somewhat similar in that it runs native code via the browser, went to great lengths to demonstrate how their sandboxing worked to address the FUD of running native code in the browser. I have a very similar FUD about executing Fabric LLVM code from arbitrary websites. To clarify where I'm coming from, I am a javascript / ruby dev and although I have worked in C I do not claim to understand the inner workings of LLVM or have ever worked with it. If there is an implicit reason why building on LLVM would sandbox code written in fabric it is not implicit to me. I doubt I am alone in this and would greatly appreciate an explanation of Fabric's sandboxing.