3 ms·

Any reason to highlight the drive train here? I’m not sure the energy source was the cause of the problem. Edit: looks like I should have explicitly said that

Any reason to highlight the drive train here? I’m not sure the energy source was the cause of the problem. Edit: looks like I should have explicitly said that fly-by-wire was the real issue but at least one person picked up on it.

ricardoastley 3y ago
i think the significance of the car being electric is that the driver had no clear way to stop ignition of the car, which is very easily done with a combustion engine.
- Nextgrid 3y ago
  Unfortunately that's less the case as "fake" ignition switches are much more common nowadays especially on higher-end models with pushbutton start and no conventional keys.
PopAlongKid 3y ago
Not specifically the "energy source", but the overall method of controlling the car. "the entire dashboard lit up with faults." --I don't think this would happen (or matter) with a convential ICE, where you could always just turn off the engine with the key.
- thebruce87m 3y ago
  Lack of keys is not limited to EVs though, many ICE cars have buttons or alternatives.
- AdamJacobMuller 3y ago
  Unfortunately, with a modern ICE you're probably wrong. The reliance on electronics is more intrinsic on an electric vehicle though.
Nextgrid 3y ago
Electric cars are "drive by wire" much more than conventional gas cars. On a mechanical transmission, shifting to neutral would disconnect the engine from the wheels. Even on some automatic transmissions with physical shifting cables/linkages, shifting to neutral would achieve the same thing. Besides the transmission, most older/lower-end cars without keyless ignition have the ignition switch physically disconnect power to the engine management electronics, which a gas engine needs to keep operating. Gas cars are unfortunately also moving away from the above (some automatic transmissions are fully shift-by-wire, and ignition switches no longer do any electrical switching), but enough of the past persists that generally you'd at least still have one of those. Fully electric cars have none of that legacy baggage. This is good for many reasons, but unfortunately they seem to have forgotten the cardinal rule of any heavy machinery - a big fat "emergency stop" button that physically disconnects power to all actuators. I guess regulation hasn't caught up yet, because until very recently it just wasn't required since the ignition switch fulfilled the same purpose.
- avar 3y ago
  An "emergency stop" button on a car would be dumb, you don't want to e.g. lose power steering on a vehicle in motion. A working break pedal is sufficient and safer.
AdamJacobMuller 3y ago
Electric vehicles are necessarily more electronically complex than ICE ones. While many ICE cars on the road today and virtually all ICE cars for sale today are also electronically complex, an ICE car does not necessarily need to be so electronically complex. ICE cars did (and could still) exist entirely without computers, electric cars can not. The integration of things like regenerative breaking inherently requires turning functions like breaks from linkages and cylinders to things like solenoids and sensors and code. While each of these points is debatable about what the safer solution is overall, the fact that this is an electric car (with the associated electronic requirements) is relevant to the debate.
- janfoeh 3y ago
  Electric cars can and did exist without computers. There was an electric car driving on the streets of Paris in 1859. [1] I would argue it's the other way around: regenerative breaking is a nice to have, but good luck building a production ICE car without a ECU that comes anywhere close to meeting emission standards. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustave_Trouvé#/media/File:Capture_d’écran_2016-10-14_à_21.26.28.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustave_Trouvé#/media/File:Cap...
- jacquesm 3y ago
  > ICE cars did (and could still) exist entirely without computers, electric cars can not. They could, but unless they are vintage they won't get road approval due to emissions limitations.
pengaru 3y ago
It's not like ICE vehicles never suffered from stuck open throttles for myriad reasons either. From footwell carpets sliding forward and catching on the physical pedal keeping it "to the metal", or plain binding at the actual butterfly plates, I've had more than my fair share of "run away" gas vehicles. It's just I've also always had a clutch pedal at my disposal to immediately decouple the max-revving engine from the drivetrain in such circumstances. EVs tend to lack any physical cutoffs between the "on" button and tires. They're always physically coupled in the drivetrain department, and you're generally operating a soft switch asking a computer somewhere to shut off. It's far beyond any sort of fly-by-wire ICE implementation I've encountered, where you'd generally still have the ability to just kill the ignition switch, forcibly shift to neutral, or push in a clutch pedal.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Most ICE's don't have the torque to overcome the brakes. But EVs definitely do which is the reason for their rapid acceleration from standstill.
  - pengaru 3y ago
    Problem with an ICE that has its throttle stuck wide open is there's no vacuum, so the vacuum-powered brake booster stops working. (even worse on a turbo vehicle) That makes things more interesting to say the least, and for a naive driver in a panic it would easily be perceived as "oh shit no brakes!" since you basically have to stand on the pedal without the vacuum assist - and that's without the engine fighting you IME. (I used to coast downhill with the engine off in my mx5 when we'd get stuck in stop-and-go Sunday traffic over Skyline Ridge heading to the coast @ Half Moon Bay. Not the easiest thing to stop once the residual vacuum disappears, and that's a small light car)
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      That's a pretty dangerous thing to do. In Switzerland it used to be that if you were caught 'coasting' that would be severely punished. Not sure what the state of that is today but it is asking for an accident. Vacuum is one thing, then there is the powersteering which at some point will fail and if you're going to want to do a hairpin turn down a mountainside without assist you better be ready for it.

ricardoastley 3y ago

i think the significance of the car being electric is that the driver had no clear way to stop ignition of the car, which is very easily done with a combustion engine.

Nextgrid 3y ago
Unfortunately that's less the case as "fake" ignition switches are much more common nowadays especially on higher-end models with pushbutton start and no conventional keys.

PopAlongKid 3y ago

Not specifically the "energy source", but the overall method of controlling the car. "the entire dashboard lit up with faults." --I don't think this would happen (or matter) with a convential ICE, where you could always just turn off the engine with the key.

thebruce87m 3y ago
Lack of keys is not limited to EVs though, many ICE cars have buttons or alternatives.
AdamJacobMuller 3y ago
Unfortunately, with a modern ICE you're probably wrong. The reliance on electronics is more intrinsic on an electric vehicle though.

Nextgrid 3y ago

Electric cars are "drive by wire" much more than conventional gas cars. On a mechanical transmission, shifting to neutral would disconnect the engine from the wheels. Even on some automatic transmissions with physical shifting cables/linkages, shifting to neutral would achieve the same thing. Besides the transmission, most older/lower-end cars without keyless ignition have the ignition switch physically disconnect power to the engine management electronics, which a gas engine needs to keep operating. Gas cars are unfortunately also moving away from the above (some automatic transmissions are fully shift-by-wire, and ignition switches no longer do any electrical switching), but enough of the past persists that generally you'd at least still have one of those. Fully electric cars have none of that legacy baggage. This is good for many reasons, but unfortunately they seem to have forgotten the cardinal rule of any heavy machinery - a big fat "emergency stop" button that physically disconnects power to all actuators. I guess regulation hasn't caught up yet, because until very recently it just wasn't required since the ignition switch fulfilled the same purpose.

avar 3y ago
An "emergency stop" button on a car would be dumb, you don't want to e.g. lose power steering on a vehicle in motion. A working break pedal is sufficient and safer.

AdamJacobMuller 3y ago

Electric vehicles are necessarily more electronically complex than ICE ones. While many ICE cars on the road today and virtually all ICE cars for sale today are also electronically complex, an ICE car does not necessarily need to be so electronically complex. ICE cars did (and could still) exist entirely without computers, electric cars can not. The integration of things like regenerative breaking inherently requires turning functions like breaks from linkages and cylinders to things like solenoids and sensors and code. While each of these points is debatable about what the safer solution is overall, the fact that this is an electric car (with the associated electronic requirements) is relevant to the debate.

janfoeh 3y ago
Electric cars can and did exist without computers. There was an electric car driving on the streets of Paris in 1859. [1] I would argue it's the other way around: regenerative breaking is a nice to have, but good luck building a production ICE car without a ECU that comes anywhere close to meeting emission standards. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustave_Trouvé#/media/File:Capture_d’écran_2016-10-14_à_21.26.28.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustave_Trouvé#/media/File:Cap...
jacquesm 3y ago
> ICE cars did (and could still) exist entirely without computers, electric cars can not. They could, but unless they are vintage they won't get road approval due to emissions limitations.

pengaru 3y ago

It's not like ICE vehicles never suffered from stuck open throttles for myriad reasons either. From footwell carpets sliding forward and catching on the physical pedal keeping it "to the metal", or plain binding at the actual butterfly plates, I've had more than my fair share of "run away" gas vehicles. It's just I've also always had a clutch pedal at my disposal to immediately decouple the max-revving engine from the drivetrain in such circumstances. EVs tend to lack any physical cutoffs between the "on" button and tires. They're always physically coupled in the drivetrain department, and you're generally operating a soft switch asking a computer somewhere to shut off. It's far beyond any sort of fly-by-wire ICE implementation I've encountered, where you'd generally still have the ability to just kill the ignition switch, forcibly shift to neutral, or push in a clutch pedal.

jacquesm 3y ago
Most ICE's don't have the torque to overcome the brakes. But EVs definitely do which is the reason for their rapid acceleration from standstill.
- pengaru 3y ago
  Problem with an ICE that has its throttle stuck wide open is there's no vacuum, so the vacuum-powered brake booster stops working. (even worse on a turbo vehicle) That makes things more interesting to say the least, and for a naive driver in a panic it would easily be perceived as "oh shit no brakes!" since you basically have to stand on the pedal without the vacuum assist - and that's without the engine fighting you IME. (I used to coast downhill with the engine off in my mx5 when we'd get stuck in stop-and-go Sunday traffic over Skyline Ridge heading to the coast @ Half Moon Bay. Not the easiest thing to stop once the residual vacuum disappears, and that's a small light car)
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    That's a pretty dangerous thing to do. In Switzerland it used to be that if you were caught 'coasting' that would be severely punished. Not sure what the state of that is today but it is asking for an accident. Vacuum is one thing, then there is the powersteering which at some point will fail and if you're going to want to do a hairpin turn down a mountainside without assist you better be ready for it.