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Jan Marsalek, of the Wirecard fraud fame, who fled Germany to Russia to escape prosecution, is now suspected to have been an asset of Russian intelligence worki

Jan Marsalek, of the Wirecard fraud fame, who fled Germany to Russia to escape prosecution, is now suspected to have been an asset of Russian intelligence working alongside a ring of at least 5 other spies. https://www.wsj.com/world/europe/u-k-says-wirecard-executive-worked-with-five-suspected-russian-spies-a225f731 https://www.wsj.com/world/europe/u-k-says-wirecard-executive... One of the biggest credit card fraud empires on the planet was run by the son of a deputy in the Russian Duma. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Chp12sEnWk&t=3m23s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Chp12sEnWk&t=3m23s

TacticalCoder 3y ago
> One of the biggest credit card fraud empires on the planet was run by the son of a deputy in the Russian Duma. $169 million in credit card fraud. I raise you with the biggest crypto exchange ponzi (so far) being run by the son of two Stanford lawyers and law teachers (dad teaching tax laws and mom teaching ethics, while having none). Well connected people to the US political elite, donating tens of millions to US political candidates. All the while having one of the most respected publication in the US (maybe not so much respected anymore now) actively participating in the scheme.
- simpleuser27 3y ago
  It wouldn't be HN without classic "But America Bad!" whataboutism.
  - thriftwy 3y ago
    Why do people bother typing in accusations in the discussion that they know would be widely overturned in the opposing direction? That's not a tabloid, you cannot force text on your audience and have their "what about" heard only by their relatives.
    - blargey 3y ago
      Because “What about” is a distraction tactic. It does not overturn anything.
      - thriftwy 3y ago
        More often than not, the original message in the first place was a distraction. You do not get to dictate the direction of discussion to your peers and having them go along. So what are they distracting it from?
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
  - mc32 3y ago
    I dunno, one crime was ~200MM the other ~10MMM, so an order of magnitude and a half larger crime. Both are associated with political figures in their respective countries.
  - thrway63245 3y ago
    Americans are always good guys by definition.
  - FpUser 3y ago
    And your problem with it is?
- btilly 3y ago
  Both bad things can be true. Crypto is one of the best methods available to Russia to circumvent sanctions and turn their capabilities to hard currencies. This is true whether we're talking about acquiring money by running frauds internationally, or finding ways to be paid for cybercrimes like ransomware. Rather bigger amounts of defrauding are possible for Americans who figure out how to directly access the American financial system. That doesn't change the way that it is being used by Russia. And the Russian use case is far more relevant to this story - they are undoubtably involved in a shockingly large fraction of the crypto money launderers that were registered in Estonia.
  - Beijinger 3y ago
    "Crypto is one of the best methods available to Russia to circumvent sanctions and turn their capabilities to hard currencies." Is it? Any evidence for this? It was my understanding that they use gold: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/03/turkey-banker-iran-sanctions-mehmet-hakan-atilla https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/03/turkey-banker-... But I know that crypto is somewhat important for North Korea
    - btilly 3y ago
      The phrase "one of the best methods" means not the only one. Yes, gold is another method that is used. But ransomware gangs are overwhelmingly Russian, and overwhelmingly use crypto as their payment channel. It is far from the first kind of cybercrime to be overwhelmingly Russian, and disrupting payment channels is a good way to shut it down. Read https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/ransomware-problem-bitcoin-problem https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/ransomware-problem-bitc... for more on this. From one of the key figures in shutting down the Viagra spam problem. Which was also largely created by Russia.
      - Beijinger 3y ago
        "But ransomware gangs are overwhelmingly Russian, and overwhelmingly use crypto as their payment channel" Would it not be a little bit strange for Russian ransomware to provide an IBAN or a Money Wire to a bank? And Russian ransomware actors are, in contrast to North Korean and as far as I know, not state actors. (Russian Troll factories are not ransom ware)
- rospaya 3y ago
  > All the while having one of the most respected publication in the US (maybe not so much respected anymore now) actively participating in the scheme. Which one is that?
- lern_too_spel 3y ago
  One is going to prison. The other gets a pat on the back from the Kremlin.
- eshack94 3y ago
  Which publication are you referring to? Just curious — I genuinely don't know.
opportune 3y ago
Not that it makes it better, but these are different heads of the same hydra: For Wirecard, Russia had a vested interest in influencing payment policies and happenings in the EU to help them with sanctions (probably at both a national level to keep trade moving, and at a personal level given that Russia's political elite bore the brunt of early sanctions). They were probably proactively engaging with him extensively from high levels. Seleznev was just a big fish in the general area of "russian fraud and cybercrime abroad." I doubt the state had a personal interest in him like it did with Marsalek. Russia just generally has a policy of allowing Russian nationals to commit cybercrime abroad (as long as it doesn't affect them domestically) probably because it brings in foreign currency, keeps people employed and encourages development of those kinds of skills, and keeps hackers busy so they don't commit domestic cybercrime or do bad things to the government. That said, Seleznev is directly cited as a factor from Russian media in the arrest of some FSB bigwigs per https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/kevincollier/report-arrested-russian-official-tipped-the-us-to-bank https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/kevincollier/report-arr.... To me, if he were personally benefitting from direct help from the FSB like Marsalek this would not be retroactive to begin with, and that it took like 3y to accuse an FSB agent of helping the CIA with him (after the same agent got caught helping catch other hackers) also suggests this was less of a strategic priority and more of a "getting our hackers arrested is bad for business" thing.

TacticalCoder 3y ago

> One of the biggest credit card fraud empires on the planet was run by the son of a deputy in the Russian Duma. $169 million in credit card fraud. I raise you with the biggest crypto exchange ponzi (so far) being run by the son of two Stanford lawyers and law teachers (dad teaching tax laws and mom teaching ethics, while having none). Well connected people to the US political elite, donating tens of millions to US political candidates. All the while having one of the most respected publication in the US (maybe not so much respected anymore now) actively participating in the scheme.

simpleuser27 3y ago
It wouldn't be HN without classic "But America Bad!" whataboutism.
- thriftwy 3y ago
  Why do people bother typing in accusations in the discussion that they know would be widely overturned in the opposing direction? That's not a tabloid, you cannot force text on your audience and have their "what about" heard only by their relatives.
  - blargey 3y ago
    Because “What about” is a distraction tactic. It does not overturn anything.
    - thriftwy 3y ago
      More often than not, the original message in the first place was a distraction. You do not get to dictate the direction of discussion to your peers and having them go along. So what are they distracting it from?
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
- mc32 3y ago
  I dunno, one crime was ~200MM the other ~10MMM, so an order of magnitude and a half larger crime. Both are associated with political figures in their respective countries.
- thrway63245 3y ago
  Americans are always good guys by definition.
- FpUser 3y ago
  And your problem with it is?
btilly 3y ago
Both bad things can be true. Crypto is one of the best methods available to Russia to circumvent sanctions and turn their capabilities to hard currencies. This is true whether we're talking about acquiring money by running frauds internationally, or finding ways to be paid for cybercrimes like ransomware. Rather bigger amounts of defrauding are possible for Americans who figure out how to directly access the American financial system. That doesn't change the way that it is being used by Russia. And the Russian use case is far more relevant to this story - they are undoubtably involved in a shockingly large fraction of the crypto money launderers that were registered in Estonia.
- Beijinger 3y ago
  "Crypto is one of the best methods available to Russia to circumvent sanctions and turn their capabilities to hard currencies." Is it? Any evidence for this? It was my understanding that they use gold: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/03/turkey-banker-iran-sanctions-mehmet-hakan-atilla https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/03/turkey-banker-... But I know that crypto is somewhat important for North Korea
  - btilly 3y ago
    The phrase "one of the best methods" means not the only one. Yes, gold is another method that is used. But ransomware gangs are overwhelmingly Russian, and overwhelmingly use crypto as their payment channel. It is far from the first kind of cybercrime to be overwhelmingly Russian, and disrupting payment channels is a good way to shut it down. Read https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/ransomware-problem-bitcoin-problem https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/ransomware-problem-bitc... for more on this. From one of the key figures in shutting down the Viagra spam problem. Which was also largely created by Russia.
    - Beijinger 3y ago
      "But ransomware gangs are overwhelmingly Russian, and overwhelmingly use crypto as their payment channel" Would it not be a little bit strange for Russian ransomware to provide an IBAN or a Money Wire to a bank? And Russian ransomware actors are, in contrast to North Korean and as far as I know, not state actors. (Russian Troll factories are not ransom ware)
rospaya 3y ago
> All the while having one of the most respected publication in the US (maybe not so much respected anymore now) actively participating in the scheme. Which one is that?
lern_too_spel 3y ago
One is going to prison. The other gets a pat on the back from the Kremlin.
eshack94 3y ago
Which publication are you referring to? Just curious — I genuinely don't know.

opportune 3y ago

Not that it makes it better, but these are different heads of the same hydra: For Wirecard, Russia had a vested interest in influencing payment policies and happenings in the EU to help them with sanctions (probably at both a national level to keep trade moving, and at a personal level given that Russia's political elite bore the brunt of early sanctions). They were probably proactively engaging with him extensively from high levels. Seleznev was just a big fish in the general area of "russian fraud and cybercrime abroad." I doubt the state had a personal interest in him like it did with Marsalek. Russia just generally has a policy of allowing Russian nationals to commit cybercrime abroad (as long as it doesn't affect them domestically) probably because it brings in foreign currency, keeps people employed and encourages development of those kinds of skills, and keeps hackers busy so they don't commit domestic cybercrime or do bad things to the government. That said, Seleznev is directly cited as a factor from Russian media in the arrest of some FSB bigwigs per https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/kevincollier/report-arrested-russian-official-tipped-the-us-to-bank https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/kevincollier/report-arr.... To me, if he were personally benefitting from direct help from the FSB like Marsalek this would not be retroactive to begin with, and that it took like 3y to accuse an FSB agent of helping the CIA with him (after the same agent got caught helping catch other hackers) also suggests this was less of a strategic priority and more of a "getting our hackers arrested is bad for business" thing.