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I hope Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania don't continue down this path. I've looked at the graphs of their economic success over the past 3 decades with quite a bit

I hope Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania don't continue down this path. I've looked at the graphs of their economic success over the past 3 decades with quite a bit of interest. I'd love to see all of them break through to the level of my adoptive homeland of Finland, and perhaps even beyond (if we don't find a way to make ourselves more business friendly first, of course!). Tremendous potential in all 3 of these places. I'd love to visit Riga or Tallinn one of these days.

kuratkull 3y ago
We won't, not our goal, not what we want. I think it'll fade into a small blip in our past vaguely remembered as "that crazy time when a lot of crypto companies opened offices and we shut them down". - Estonian
- tleilaxu 3y ago
  As someone from the UK currently in Tallinn and about to start a job search here - I hope the (non-crypto) startups stay! Estonia is such a beautiful country, with such a wonderful culture and friendly people. I hope to do whatever part I can to contribute to Estonia’s success. …not with a crypto startup, though.
thriftwy 3y ago
I'm frankly not sure why you expect the level of Finland to remain where it was. 20 years ago Russian writer Viktor Pelevin remarked that "we are like a banana republic that has to import its bananas from Finland". But fast forward those 20 years, Finland itself is now a buffer state that buffers a dead end. In many ways, Baltic states and Finland made money trading with Russia, and if Russia stays AFK, their combined economic viability is in doubt. I'm not sure what is Finland's comparative advantage these days. What are things that are is cheaper to do in Finland (or Latvia) that you cannot do in Hungary, on Cyprus or in Denmark? The logistic leg is surely longer and I'm frankly not sure that you're going to pull it off.
- dragandj 3y ago
  In my opinion, Finns are very honest, hard working, and reliable. They obviously don't try to sell themselves as cheap, so they don't compete on price, but on quality.
  - heavenlyblue 3y ago
    I like how the parent puts Denmark next to Hungary and Cyprus, as if their salaries could be comparable in any way. This is like comparing Silicon Valley salaries with Chinese
    - thriftwy 3y ago
      Can their salaries, and productivity, be compared with Finland though? My point was, Finland is doing several different things, most of which may now be done cheaper elsewhere.
      - theironhammer 3y ago
        What about skills based? Doing things that other "cheap" countries can't do? If u can't compete on price compete on know-how.
        thriftwy 3y ago
        I don't think they lack skills on Cyprus and in Denmark. Hungarians are also quite bright. Sure, I don't expect that Finland's economy would just implode. Developed countries don't do that. But it's quite possible it will enter multiple years long economic malaise, even by post-2022 EU accounts. As other countries slowly eat its lunch by developing matching skills while having better logistical disposition to use them.
      - latemaildale 3y ago
        Their advantage might be quality though. I have a bunch of tools from Finland, because they're heavy duty and reliable. Cost is much higher than Chinese made, but it's still value for money.
artemonster 3y ago
what potential you are talking about? I am from there and there is absolutely nothing. no human capital, no resources, no political willingness (only huge corruption). the only viable business was to be a sort-of-kind-of-middleman between EU and Russia and thats also gone. most young people left for greener pastures towards EU. go visit all of these places and please wander outside the tourist area, and better yet, rent a car a travel through countries (they are small, a road trip through baltic states will take you less than a week). after that tell me more about this "tremendous potential".
- AndroTux 3y ago
  I moved from Germany to Estonia because in Germany, there really is no political willingness to support entrepreneurship, startups or the internet in general. If you’re not a big car company, you’re not going to be happy in Germany as a company owner. As a founder, I am much happier in Estonia. Life is much simpler when you don’t have to jump through twenty hoops because of some stupid political decision for every action you take as a small business. While I can’t speak for all of the Baltics, Estonia truly has a lot of potential in that regard. Hell, the „IRS“ here has a support chat! Unthinkable in Germany. Sure, a lot of things need work and are still developing, especially in rural areas, and of course no country comes without issues, but Tallinn isn’t far off German cities in many areas. In some, it’s even outright better. Free public transport anyone? Being able to pay by card everywhere? Self-checkout in supermarkets? Not a thing in Germany.
  - gwervc 3y ago
    > Life is much simpler when you don’t have to jump through twenty hoops because of some stupid political decision for every action you take as a small business. There is the same issue in France. I'm pretty sure it's viewed by big companies that own the government as a feature to impede concurence (however small) to arise.
- blacksmith_tb 3y ago
  Not the OP, but my house (in the US) has very nice triple-paned windows that were manufactured in Latvia by Intus. Estonia certainly has a cool, digitally-savvy reputation, though I gather a lot of that is closer to "these things which should be easy like getting licenses etc. are actually easy" so maybe that's partly hype. Haven't heard much about Lithuania recently, to be fair. I would be willing to believe the Baltics aren't going to change the whole world overnight, but is it really as bleak as you're suggesting?
0xDEF 3y ago
If you look more into the money laundering that has been happening in the Baltic countries a lot of it it wealthy Russians attempting to get their money out of Russia and into tax havens around the world.
Roark66 3y ago
The whole region(central and Eastern Europe) has great economic potential especially if you consider many transport links are being finished linking the North with the South through Poland, Czech Republic and beyond(hopefully Ukraine too in future) . In recent history in the region all important railroads and motorways were always East-West to facilitate quick military transfer while new North-South links are a lot more valuable for the region's economy. If only we manage to keep our tax/business laws stable, have more effective judiciary and work towards common interests instead of being played against eachother by various "powers" we'll have it pretty good.
- askonomm 3y ago
  The Baltic countries are northern Europe, not eastern.
  - hiAndrewQuinn 3y ago
    Northern Europe usually refers to Norway, Sweden, Finland, and sometimes Denmark. But they are further north than most of the other countries people think of as "eastern", that is true.
    - Strom 3y ago
      That heavily depends on who you listen to. CIA indeed defines Northern Europe as you describe, including Denmark, plus Iceland. [1] However the United Nations has a different definition, which also includes the Baltics, UK, and Ireland. [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Europe#CIA_World_Factbook https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Europe#CIA_World_Fact... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Europe#UN_geoscheme_classification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Europe#UN_geoscheme_c...
    - askonomm 3y ago
      Usually? According to geography (and the wikipedia pages for each baltic country), Baltic countries are also located in Northern Europe. In the UN geoscheme, Baltic countries are part of Northern Europe. According to EuroVoc, Baltic countries are part of Northern Europe.

kuratkull 3y ago

We won't, not our goal, not what we want. I think it'll fade into a small blip in our past vaguely remembered as "that crazy time when a lot of crypto companies opened offices and we shut them down". - Estonian

tleilaxu 3y ago
As someone from the UK currently in Tallinn and about to start a job search here - I hope the (non-crypto) startups stay! Estonia is such a beautiful country, with such a wonderful culture and friendly people. I hope to do whatever part I can to contribute to Estonia’s success. …not with a crypto startup, though.

thriftwy 3y ago

I'm frankly not sure why you expect the level of Finland to remain where it was. 20 years ago Russian writer Viktor Pelevin remarked that "we are like a banana republic that has to import its bananas from Finland". But fast forward those 20 years, Finland itself is now a buffer state that buffers a dead end. In many ways, Baltic states and Finland made money trading with Russia, and if Russia stays AFK, their combined economic viability is in doubt. I'm not sure what is Finland's comparative advantage these days. What are things that are is cheaper to do in Finland (or Latvia) that you cannot do in Hungary, on Cyprus or in Denmark? The logistic leg is surely longer and I'm frankly not sure that you're going to pull it off.

dragandj 3y ago
In my opinion, Finns are very honest, hard working, and reliable. They obviously don't try to sell themselves as cheap, so they don't compete on price, but on quality.
- heavenlyblue 3y ago
  I like how the parent puts Denmark next to Hungary and Cyprus, as if their salaries could be comparable in any way. This is like comparing Silicon Valley salaries with Chinese
  - thriftwy 3y ago
    Can their salaries, and productivity, be compared with Finland though? My point was, Finland is doing several different things, most of which may now be done cheaper elsewhere.
    - theironhammer 3y ago
      What about skills based? Doing things that other "cheap" countries can't do? If u can't compete on price compete on know-how.
      - thriftwy 3y ago
        I don't think they lack skills on Cyprus and in Denmark. Hungarians are also quite bright. Sure, I don't expect that Finland's economy would just implode. Developed countries don't do that. But it's quite possible it will enter multiple years long economic malaise, even by post-2022 EU accounts. As other countries slowly eat its lunch by developing matching skills while having better logistical disposition to use them.
    - latemaildale 3y ago
      Their advantage might be quality though. I have a bunch of tools from Finland, because they're heavy duty and reliable. Cost is much higher than Chinese made, but it's still value for money.

artemonster 3y ago

what potential you are talking about? I am from there and there is absolutely nothing. no human capital, no resources, no political willingness (only huge corruption). the only viable business was to be a sort-of-kind-of-middleman between EU and Russia and thats also gone. most young people left for greener pastures towards EU. go visit all of these places and please wander outside the tourist area, and better yet, rent a car a travel through countries (they are small, a road trip through baltic states will take you less than a week). after that tell me more about this "tremendous potential".

AndroTux 3y ago
I moved from Germany to Estonia because in Germany, there really is no political willingness to support entrepreneurship, startups or the internet in general. If you’re not a big car company, you’re not going to be happy in Germany as a company owner. As a founder, I am much happier in Estonia. Life is much simpler when you don’t have to jump through twenty hoops because of some stupid political decision for every action you take as a small business. While I can’t speak for all of the Baltics, Estonia truly has a lot of potential in that regard. Hell, the „IRS“ here has a support chat! Unthinkable in Germany. Sure, a lot of things need work and are still developing, especially in rural areas, and of course no country comes without issues, but Tallinn isn’t far off German cities in many areas. In some, it’s even outright better. Free public transport anyone? Being able to pay by card everywhere? Self-checkout in supermarkets? Not a thing in Germany.
- gwervc 3y ago
  > Life is much simpler when you don’t have to jump through twenty hoops because of some stupid political decision for every action you take as a small business. There is the same issue in France. I'm pretty sure it's viewed by big companies that own the government as a feature to impede concurence (however small) to arise.
blacksmith_tb 3y ago
Not the OP, but my house (in the US) has very nice triple-paned windows that were manufactured in Latvia by Intus. Estonia certainly has a cool, digitally-savvy reputation, though I gather a lot of that is closer to "these things which should be easy like getting licenses etc. are actually easy" so maybe that's partly hype. Haven't heard much about Lithuania recently, to be fair. I would be willing to believe the Baltics aren't going to change the whole world overnight, but is it really as bleak as you're suggesting?

0xDEF 3y ago

If you look more into the money laundering that has been happening in the Baltic countries a lot of it it wealthy Russians attempting to get their money out of Russia and into tax havens around the world.

Roark66 3y ago

The whole region(central and Eastern Europe) has great economic potential especially if you consider many transport links are being finished linking the North with the South through Poland, Czech Republic and beyond(hopefully Ukraine too in future) . In recent history in the region all important railroads and motorways were always East-West to facilitate quick military transfer while new North-South links are a lot more valuable for the region's economy. If only we manage to keep our tax/business laws stable, have more effective judiciary and work towards common interests instead of being played against eachother by various "powers" we'll have it pretty good.

askonomm 3y ago
The Baltic countries are northern Europe, not eastern.
- hiAndrewQuinn 3y ago
  Northern Europe usually refers to Norway, Sweden, Finland, and sometimes Denmark. But they are further north than most of the other countries people think of as "eastern", that is true.
  - Strom 3y ago
    That heavily depends on who you listen to. CIA indeed defines Northern Europe as you describe, including Denmark, plus Iceland. [1] However the United Nations has a different definition, which also includes the Baltics, UK, and Ireland. [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Europe#CIA_World_Factbook https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Europe#CIA_World_Fact... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Europe#UN_geoscheme_classification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Europe#UN_geoscheme_c...
  - askonomm 3y ago
    Usually? According to geography (and the wikipedia pages for each baltic country), Baltic countries are also located in Northern Europe. In the UN geoscheme, Baltic countries are part of Northern Europe. According to EuroVoc, Baltic countries are part of Northern Europe.