4 ms·

If the CIA was competent enough to create mass protests to oust leaders, and not leave significant evidence of their involvement, they'd oust Putin and a bunch

If the CIA was competent enough to create mass protests to oust leaders, and not leave significant evidence of their involvement, they'd oust Putin and a bunch of others they don't like. If the guy was shot, poisoned, or similar, I'd treat the CIA as a possible suspect. Although given their history of fumbling assassinations, perhaps not the most likely one (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_assassination_attempts_on_Fidel_Castro https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_assassination_attempts_on_...).

reaperman 3y ago
> If the CIA was competent enough to create mass protests to oust leaders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_Guatemalan_coup_d%27état https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_Guatemalan_coup_d%27état? (fails the "and not leave significant evidence of their involvement" part of your test, however)
- nitwit005 3y ago
  A fundamental assumption of many conspiracy theories is that you can manage this stuff in total secrecy, and maintain that secret for decades, despite presumably involving a huge number of people.
somenameforme 3y ago
They don't create them, they foment them. Like in the most recent protests in Iran, we were agitating those but it's not like we created them out of nothing. Those divisions and issues are very real. And we tried our hardest to use them to overthrow the government, but there just wasn't enough momentum. And I think the same was initially true in Ukraine, so we took it to the next level. This [1] is John McCain, in Kyiv, giving a speech trying to embolden and agitate the protesters onward. 'America is with you. I am with you! Your destiny lies in Europe!' It seems unlikely that we would have done that if we thought the protests would have organically led to insurrection (even with covert instigation), because not only does it make our involvement completely overt, but it's also just a ridiculously hostile action. Imagine if in the leadup to January 6th, you had some high ranking Chinese official, in DC, riling up protesters 'China is with you. I am with you! Your destiny lies in a multipolar world!' It's just so unimaginably crass and overt that it would be just shy of a defacto declaration of war, as it's obviously an effort to try to rile up a group of people to overthrow a democratically elected government. [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93eyhO8VTdg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93eyhO8VTdg
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- nitwit005 3y ago
  Politicians giving public statements of support for protests is a rather different thing than a covert CIA operation. People would just laugh if China made such a statement. No one paid much attention to the statement they did make: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-protests-china/china-state-media-says-u-s-capitol-storm-reflects-leadership-failures-idUSKBN29D00Q https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-protests-chi...
  - somenameforme 3y ago
    It wasn't a "public statement of support." That was a rally held in Kyiv, headed by the US. This was the US being on the ground, in and among the protesters and making a very visible point of it. It's likely because CIA ops to agitate and embolden the protesters 'quietly' failed, so they needed a more visible demonstration to show the protesters we'd have their back in case of an insurrection.
    - nitwit005 3y ago
      I argued the CIA clearly clearly isn't capable of entirely secretly creating protests. You insisted they "foment them" instead. Now you're claiming they also fail at fomenting them. And also John McCain somehow surpassed the efforts of the entire CIA by giving a speech? Guy was amazing.
      - somenameforme 3y ago
        Why would you think it'd be amazing? You can achieve vastly more acting openly than you can by acting secretly. The US overtly and openly rallying anti-government protesters, encouraging them to overthrow their government, right in front of said government, was just a ridiculous power play. It's going to not only help embolden the existing protesters, but bring every single person with an inkling of anti-government sentiment out of the wood work because "this might be it!" And well, it was "it." The only reason the CIA exists (in terms of ops, and not intelligence) is for secrecy. The "problem" is that in Ukraine there's zero debate as to whether the democratic government was fairly elected - they were. And we, the country that runs around raving about the sanctity of democracy, were working to overthrow them. It's really not a good look, even less so when we started doing it openly (if only because now I can simply point to videos showing it clear as day), and one of the endless examples of how you create people like me.

reaperman 3y ago

> If the CIA was competent enough to create mass protests to oust leaders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_Guatemalan_coup_d%27état https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_Guatemalan_coup_d%27état? (fails the "and not leave significant evidence of their involvement" part of your test, however)

nitwit005 3y ago
A fundamental assumption of many conspiracy theories is that you can manage this stuff in total secrecy, and maintain that secret for decades, despite presumably involving a huge number of people.

somenameforme 3y ago

They don't create them, they foment them. Like in the most recent protests in Iran, we were agitating those but it's not like we created them out of nothing. Those divisions and issues are very real. And we tried our hardest to use them to overthrow the government, but there just wasn't enough momentum. And I think the same was initially true in Ukraine, so we took it to the next level. This [1] is John McCain, in Kyiv, giving a speech trying to embolden and agitate the protesters onward. 'America is with you. I am with you! Your destiny lies in Europe!' It seems unlikely that we would have done that if we thought the protests would have organically led to insurrection (even with covert instigation), because not only does it make our involvement completely overt, but it's also just a ridiculously hostile action. Imagine if in the leadup to January 6th, you had some high ranking Chinese official, in DC, riling up protesters 'China is with you. I am with you! Your destiny lies in a multipolar world!' It's just so unimaginably crass and overt that it would be just shy of a defacto declaration of war, as it's obviously an effort to try to rile up a group of people to overthrow a democratically elected government. [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93eyhO8VTdg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93eyhO8VTdg

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
nitwit005 3y ago
Politicians giving public statements of support for protests is a rather different thing than a covert CIA operation. People would just laugh if China made such a statement. No one paid much attention to the statement they did make: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-protests-china/china-state-media-says-u-s-capitol-storm-reflects-leadership-failures-idUSKBN29D00Q https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-protests-chi...
- somenameforme 3y ago
  It wasn't a "public statement of support." That was a rally held in Kyiv, headed by the US. This was the US being on the ground, in and among the protesters and making a very visible point of it. It's likely because CIA ops to agitate and embolden the protesters 'quietly' failed, so they needed a more visible demonstration to show the protesters we'd have their back in case of an insurrection.
  - nitwit005 3y ago
    I argued the CIA clearly clearly isn't capable of entirely secretly creating protests. You insisted they "foment them" instead. Now you're claiming they also fail at fomenting them. And also John McCain somehow surpassed the efforts of the entire CIA by giving a speech? Guy was amazing.
    - somenameforme 3y ago
      Why would you think it'd be amazing? You can achieve vastly more acting openly than you can by acting secretly. The US overtly and openly rallying anti-government protesters, encouraging them to overthrow their government, right in front of said government, was just a ridiculous power play. It's going to not only help embolden the existing protesters, but bring every single person with an inkling of anti-government sentiment out of the wood work because "this might be it!" And well, it was "it." The only reason the CIA exists (in terms of ops, and not intelligence) is for secrecy. The "problem" is that in Ukraine there's zero debate as to whether the democratic government was fairly elected - they were. And we, the country that runs around raving about the sanctity of democracy, were working to overthrow them. It's really not a good look, even less so when we started doing it openly (if only because now I can simply point to videos showing it clear as day), and one of the endless examples of how you create people like me.