3 ms·

And yet so many on this forum seem convinced that such programs are no longer taking place, despite many examples of such data only coming out years later

hedora 3y ago
Geez. Lighten up. /s According to Wikipedia, it's been at least 10 months since the US got caught doing this sort of thing illegally (trainers being complicit in steroid use during training): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_drugs_in_warfare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_drugs_in_warfare And the US did recently ban giving amphetamines to troops (in favor of something more effective and less-well-understood): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_psychoactive_drugs_used_by_militaries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_psychoactive_drugs_use...
- reaperman 3y ago
  Having taken both, I’m not sure if modafinil is really “more effective“ but it absolutely has fewer psychoactive side effects overall. Ranks somewhere between caffeine and amphetamine in efficacy and side effects. I’m much more comfortable with service members being given modafinil than amphetamine. Modafinil can still cause an increase in risk-taking behavior (certainly did for me), but if you absolutely need to be awake and functioning for 30-70 hours at a time it’s probably the least worst option. I’ve tried most stimulants, legal and illegal, and have had jobs that required me to be awake for 70+ hours straight in an environment not so different from military work (minus encounters with hostile forces). I think the most right solution is “don’t put people in positions where they have to work more than 14 hours or stay awake more than 20 hours” but while that is possible for corporations to guarantee to workers, it’s not always possible for militaries to guarantee to soldiers.
  - bookofjoe 3y ago
    ... or to doctors anywhere
  - vGPU 3y ago
    Modafinil would give me hallucinations after 2-3 days of use with a full night of sleep between. Adderall has never done that.
krapp 3y ago
I'm convinced MKULTRA isn't still going on simply because it was based on faulty assumptions about how the brain works and how easily it can be manipulated. Not that there aren't likely programs with similar intent going on (more focused on influencing the masses rather than programming individuals) but the whole "mind-breaking people with LSD and trauma" genre of conspiracy theory probably isn't real. Also I don't know what you mean by "so many," when the default consensus on HN is often very much pro-conspiracy.
- mcpackieh 3y ago
  Reminds me of this great joke from the late comedian Trevor Moore: "What if governments learned from the MKUltra experiments in the 50's that trauma allows you to control people, so they purposely orchestrate disastrous events to keep their citizens afraid + dependent on them, and that's one of the reasons that mental illness has been rising? lol"
- chrisco255 3y ago
  I suspect that most people are susceptible to such techniques. It's not hard to find historical examples of mass delusions or bouts of madness in large populations. Sometimes something like a severe drought (hunger) convinces an entire society that human sacrifice is a good idea in order to improve the weather. Why wouldn't similar things cause most people to break when a team of people are working to break them, with the aid of drugs and otherwise to make the trauma seem real?
  - krapp 3y ago
    I think there's a difference between breaking someone and breaking them in a specific way that allows them to be controlled. As far as I know, the MKULTRA documents themselves show their experiments to be a failure. Pumping someone full of LSD then playing "kill the President" over headphones doesn't work. The closest working analogue I can come up with to MKULTRA's goals is cult indoctrination, and that only works so long as someone remains within the cult's sphere of influence.
    - 3y ago
hindsightbias 3y ago
Many might do better to focus on advocacy rather than ignorance. Not sure why secret cat experiments should matter that much in the stark reality of: "Overall, 48% say there are some circumstances under which the use of torture is acceptable in U.S. anti-terrorism efforts; about as many (49%) say there are no circumstances under which the use of torture is acceptable." (2017) This stuff is completely mainstream. The first episode of Blue Bloods (2010) had Tom Selleck correcting his DA daughters portrayal of police torture of a subject as thoughtful "enhanced interrogation". I can turn on the TV anytime and see this sort of stuff. It's as normal as apple pie. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2017/01/26/americans-divided-in-views-of-use-of-torture-in-u-s-anti-terror-efforts/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2017/01/26/americans...
2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
How dare so many on this forum require evidence for claims!
- DangitBobby 3y ago
  I agree, if I can't see it, it's not happening.
  - thephyber 3y ago
    And if I can imagine it, for sure the big bad CIA bogeyman is doing it to both terrorists and patriotic Americans alike. /s Some evidence of it actually happening is perfectly reasonable.

hedora 3y ago

Geez. Lighten up. /s According to Wikipedia, it's been at least 10 months since the US got caught doing this sort of thing illegally (trainers being complicit in steroid use during training): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_drugs_in_warfare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_drugs_in_warfare And the US did recently ban giving amphetamines to troops (in favor of something more effective and less-well-understood): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_psychoactive_drugs_used_by_militaries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_psychoactive_drugs_use...

reaperman 3y ago
Having taken both, I’m not sure if modafinil is really “more effective“ but it absolutely has fewer psychoactive side effects overall. Ranks somewhere between caffeine and amphetamine in efficacy and side effects. I’m much more comfortable with service members being given modafinil than amphetamine. Modafinil can still cause an increase in risk-taking behavior (certainly did for me), but if you absolutely need to be awake and functioning for 30-70 hours at a time it’s probably the least worst option. I’ve tried most stimulants, legal and illegal, and have had jobs that required me to be awake for 70+ hours straight in an environment not so different from military work (minus encounters with hostile forces). I think the most right solution is “don’t put people in positions where they have to work more than 14 hours or stay awake more than 20 hours” but while that is possible for corporations to guarantee to workers, it’s not always possible for militaries to guarantee to soldiers.
- bookofjoe 3y ago
  ... or to doctors anywhere
- vGPU 3y ago
  Modafinil would give me hallucinations after 2-3 days of use with a full night of sleep between. Adderall has never done that.

krapp 3y ago

I'm convinced MKULTRA isn't still going on simply because it was based on faulty assumptions about how the brain works and how easily it can be manipulated. Not that there aren't likely programs with similar intent going on (more focused on influencing the masses rather than programming individuals) but the whole "mind-breaking people with LSD and trauma" genre of conspiracy theory probably isn't real. Also I don't know what you mean by "so many," when the default consensus on HN is often very much pro-conspiracy.

mcpackieh 3y ago
Reminds me of this great joke from the late comedian Trevor Moore: "What if governments learned from the MKUltra experiments in the 50's that trauma allows you to control people, so they purposely orchestrate disastrous events to keep their citizens afraid + dependent on them, and that's one of the reasons that mental illness has been rising? lol"
chrisco255 3y ago
I suspect that most people are susceptible to such techniques. It's not hard to find historical examples of mass delusions or bouts of madness in large populations. Sometimes something like a severe drought (hunger) convinces an entire society that human sacrifice is a good idea in order to improve the weather. Why wouldn't similar things cause most people to break when a team of people are working to break them, with the aid of drugs and otherwise to make the trauma seem real?
- krapp 3y ago
  I think there's a difference between breaking someone and breaking them in a specific way that allows them to be controlled. As far as I know, the MKULTRA documents themselves show their experiments to be a failure. Pumping someone full of LSD then playing "kill the President" over headphones doesn't work. The closest working analogue I can come up with to MKULTRA's goals is cult indoctrination, and that only works so long as someone remains within the cult's sphere of influence.
  - 3y ago

hindsightbias 3y ago

Many might do better to focus on advocacy rather than ignorance. Not sure why secret cat experiments should matter that much in the stark reality of: "Overall, 48% say there are some circumstances under which the use of torture is acceptable in U.S. anti-terrorism efforts; about as many (49%) say there are no circumstances under which the use of torture is acceptable." (2017) This stuff is completely mainstream. The first episode of Blue Bloods (2010) had Tom Selleck correcting his DA daughters portrayal of police torture of a subject as thoughtful "enhanced interrogation". I can turn on the TV anytime and see this sort of stuff. It's as normal as apple pie. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2017/01/26/americans-divided-in-views-of-use-of-torture-in-u-s-anti-terror-efforts/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2017/01/26/americans...

2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago

How dare so many on this forum require evidence for claims!

DangitBobby 3y ago
I agree, if I can't see it, it's not happening.
- thephyber 3y ago
  And if I can imagine it, for sure the big bad CIA bogeyman is doing it to both terrorists and patriotic Americans alike. /s Some evidence of it actually happening is perfectly reasonable.