6 ms·

Man ‘forced to drive electric car into police van’ in Scotland after brakes fail

43 points by isomorph 3y ago

yladiz 3y ago
I wonder what happened here. Isn't it a requirement for cars to have emergency brakes for situations when the normal method of braking fails?
- tough 3y ago
  There's the parking break, but depending on how fast you're going it might be a bad idea to use that instead of crashing in a straight line (you probably gonna swivel)
- pjc50 3y ago
  The handbrake is usually fully manual, but it's also not terribly strong especially against an electric motor in its optimal torque region. That leaves you with the regular brakes. Now, I don't know if they're vacuum-assist hydraulic or brake-by-wire on electric cars such as this ..
  - giantg2 3y ago
    Every car has some form of brake by wire today. The independent traction control and stability manager relies on electronic intervention between the pedal and the brakes. Even on hydraulic systems they have actuators (a box under the hood) between your master cylinder and caliper.
    - pjc50 3y ago
      I drive an almost 20 year old car. I'm going to have such a future shock when I eventually get a new one :(
      - giantg2 3y ago
        I got a work trim truck about 5 years ago. No camera, no OnStar, no Bluetooth, no key fob, regular turn key, manual parking brake, etc. It's actually very basic and I love that. It was cheaper than any midsized or large SUV. I would love it if I could keep it and turn it electric one day. Once the battery densities are 1kwh/kg it would probably swap nicely by replacing the engine/accessories/gas tank with batteries and replacing the transmission with an electric motor. The electronics in most electric cars are a turn off for me. I want it to be simple.
        taylodl 3y ago
        And my grandfather would have complained about the electronics in your work trim truck from 5 years ago. Compared to trucks from the 60's and 70's, that truck was a computer marvel with computers and sensors galore!
        giantg2 3y ago
        Yeah, but the main difference I see is that the new tech being added now had almost nothing to do with driving or improving safety. DFI, ABS, etc great. Infotainment, touchscreen vs buttons, heated seats, autopilot, App to control my car, etc is just garbage I don't need or want, and certainly don't want to pay for.
        taylodl 3y ago
        I don't disagree with you, but I'm what a lot of people would refer to as an old fart! So I'm probably not going to help your case. It will be interesting though to see what went wrong in this case.
      - taylodl 3y ago
        They've been doing this for nearly 30 years now, to varying degrees. It all started with ABS. Then they added traction control, then they added regenerative braking (for EV's) and so on. It's been decades since your brake pedal has had a direct mechanical connection to your drums and your calipers. Even ABS adds computers and sensors between your pedal and the brake. Generally, these systems are very reliable, but occasionally things go wrong. So far the analysis has been over an order of magnitude of lives have been saved by using this technology than have been lost due to its going awry. Ultimately, this is the argument that's going to be used for self-driving cars.
  - ihattendorf 3y ago
    Handbrakes are frequently being replaced by electronic parking brakes.
  - buildsjets 3y ago
    Both of my old-fashioned ICE cars have electrically actuated handbrakes. Audi/Volkswagen started implementing them at least 10 years ago.
  - scrumper 3y ago
    Regular braking on electric cars partly involves the motors themselves - this regenerative braking helps to convert the kinetic energy of the vehicle back into stored energy in the battery by turning the motors into generators (vs. turning it into as heat as happens with standard friction brakes.) If you ever drive an electric car, you'll find the "engine braking" (i.e. the slowdown you get when you take your foot off the accelerator pedal) is quite a bit more pronounced than on an ICE car. There are also friction brakes of course, but it's possible the driver, standing on the pedal to try and slow his runaway car, had caused them to overheat, which renders them completely useless.
    - mint2 3y ago
      The slowdown when taking your foot off the pedal is set by the mfg. it is by no means universal even if it’s common to have significant braking. Some cars are tuned to mimic the coasting of ice vehicles.
      - scrumper 3y ago
        Yeah. And that's part of why all those cars have fully electronically controlled brakes. They're all balanced so when you put your foot on the brake pedal, the car combines calipers and regenerative braking to induce the deceleration that a driver would expect. From what I've read, it's mostly regenerative unless you're going very slowly or you're braking hard at speed.
- caiusdurling 3y ago
  I think the MG4 has a brake by wire system, although those are supposed to have a failsafe built in but if it's not electro-hydraulic there might not be a mechanical link between the pedal and the callipers. Handbrake will be electric too, so activation depends on enough of the car brain functioning. Keyless ignition usually has an override for a running car too, in a ford pushing the button three times within a few seconds turns the combustion engine off. Wonder if that's the same in electric cars, otherwise the only way I can think to kill it is isolate the batteries, same as emergency services would do in an accident.
  - EricE 3y ago
    Another, more detailed account link to elsewhere in the comments pointed out that the police were even on the phone with engineers from the car manufacturer - if there was such a magic sequence apparently it didn't work. Yeah! Software Everywhere!
- Simulacra 3y ago
  60 Minutes had a program where they looked at cars that did not stop when you press the break. And all of their tests, no matter what, even if they were holding down the gas pedal, pressing the break, brings the car to a stop. Unless there is shown to be a physical defect or fault that prevented the brakes engaging, I am inclined to believe the driver is at fault.
  - pjc50 3y ago
    Was this the good old "Toyota unintended acceleration" fiasco? I still don't know who to believe on that one.
  - giantg2 3y ago
    "Unless there is shown to be a physical defect or fault that prevented the brakes engaging, I am inclined to believe the driver is at fault." What about an electronic defect? That's the interesting part to me - you're relying on the data logs from a system for court which in theory might not match what actually happened and may not leave an observable physical defect. For example but not specific to this case, if there was an error that actuated a brake through the traction control system but it wasn't recorded due to the initiating error.
  - michaelt 3y ago
    I'm sympathetic to car manufacturers in situations of very brief unintended acceleration, where the driver could plausibly have hit the accelerator instead of the brake, or something loose in the car could have got stuck under one of the pedals. But in this case, the problem lasted long enough for the driver to call the police, and a convoy of police vehicles to escort him for some 15 minutes. To me it sounds like the driver's reaction was calm and controlled, with plenty of time to assess the situation. Another report on the same incident [1] says the driver tried the park button, the engine off button, police got advice from engineers, they even tried passing the car key to another car. And that the dash showed "nine warning lights." Given these facts, it seems very unlikely the driver was, for example, confusing the accelerator and the brake, or failing to press the brake sufficiently hard. [1] https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/motors/11320530/electric-vehicle-car-brakes-malfunction-glasgow-police/ https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/motors/11320530/electric-ve...
- rightbyte 3y ago
  If you got a steel wire parking brake you won't even notice pulling it at speed on many models. (Don't try this at home ...). You can usually apply more torque on front wheel drive with the motor than the brake can hold since the front is heavier. Newer cars usually have some electronic parking brake that might just refuse to do its thing. And the key is not connected to a relay over the batteries usually nowadays. ABS vents can lock you out from using the main wheel brakes. Welcome to the future of drive by wire cars.
  - giantg2 3y ago
    I hate electronic parking brakes. WTF are they good for in an emergency? I guess that's why they call them parking brakes and not emergency brakes. Are we really that lazy that we can't put on a brake manually anymore?
    - hef19898 3y ago
      Because most modern car brakes are complex beats with tons of electronic wizardry. So parking brakes are using those existing electronics. Makes sense. Not that it would mean much simply being mechanical, I have a car where the parking brake mechanically enganges at the rear prop shaft. And believe, all that brake does is supporting parking if the road isn't too steep.
      - giantg2 3y ago
        What electronics would the parking brake need to share? It shouldn't need ABS/stability/traction/etc. It's just an on/off state with wither a mechanical or electronic actuator.
        hef19898 3y ago
        And allmof that actuators include ABS, ESP and whatnot.
        giantg2 3y ago
- autoexec 3y ago
  This article (https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/motors/11320530/electric-vehicle-car-brakes-malfunction-glasgow-police/ https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/motors/11320530/electric-ve...), which features a picture of the driver looking displeased, doesn't mention the emergency break but says that he tried everything, even turning off the engine. Police had engineers from the car company on the phone trying to come up with ways to stop the car. I have to assume the emergency brake came up as an option. Maybe activating the emergency brake requires using a touch screen?
  - EricE 3y ago
    The emergency brake is probably electronic and it wouldn't shock me if it was locked out if the car was in motion or defeated by some other similarly idiotic assumption. I hope I'm able to be buried in my 20+ year old cars at this point.
- jiveturkey 3y ago
  the "emergency" brake is actually the parking brake. it cannot hold up against engine power. if you have a car you can try this yourself. apparently the car in question was stuck in a mode where there was a constant torque request (throttle setting) that was enough to overpower the brake. or, the car helpfully wouldn't allow engaging of the parking brake while the car was still in "D" mode. i would also have tried opening the door. many cars will take the car out of gear when a door is opened. (frustratingly to me, as it can in rare occasion be helpful to crack open the door when in reverse, to look down for parking lines etc. a very loud warning chime would be better for me personally than this nanny feature.)
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  > Isn't it a requirement for cars to have emergency brakes for situations when the normal method of braking fails? No. Cars usually have parking brakes, which can be more or less useful as emergency brakes, but that is not their primary function and they are not designed or usually very useful for that purpose for a vehicle stuck with more than minimal power being applied.
slillibri 3y ago
I know nothing of electric vehicles, but couldn’t he turn the vehicle off?
- hbrav 3y ago
  I don't think it has a 'power' switch that you can flip to cut power. In fact I'm not sure many ICE vehicles will do that these days. If I press the 'engine start / stop' button in my car while I'm not stopped, I don't think it will stop the engine.
  - cabalamat 3y ago
    >I don't think it has a 'power' switch that you can flip to cut power. There should be. And an entirely manual brake.
  - whelp_24 3y ago
    In gas vehicles pressing and holding it should turn it off you are in motion.
    - theshrike79 3y ago
      It will also turn off power brakes and power steering, making it really hard to control.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - whelp_24 3y ago
        It is exaggerated, when you're moving it's much easier to steer. The hydrolics will also stay pressurized for a bit, long enough for you to get to the side of the road. The scenario where you need to cut the power probably means the small risk is worth it.
  - altairprime 3y ago
    It will if you hold it down long enough.
atlasunshrugged 3y ago
Worst viral marketing campaign for a reboot ever? Speed 3: Slow & Steady
diggan 3y ago
Short and concise statement from Police Scotland: > Around 10.35pm on Sunday 1 October, we received a report of a driver unable to stop his electric car on the A803 heading towards Kirkintilloch. The car was travelling at a low speed and officers carried out a controlled halt with the aid of a police vehicle. There was no damage to either vehicle. The driver arranged for the vehicle to be recovered
yumraj 3y ago
For others who may have been curious like me: MG Motor UK Limited (MG Motor) is an automotive company owned by SAIC Motor UK, headquartered in London, owned by the Shanghai-based Chinese state-owned automaker SAIC Motor. [0] [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MG_Motor https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MG_Motor
stuckkeys 3y ago
I guess Toyota is not the only car that moves forward even after you break.
- jiveturkey 3y ago
  brake
  - stuckkeys 3y ago
    [flagged]
EricE 3y ago
Fly by wire - controlled by software. God help us all.

43 points by isomorph 3y ago

I wonder what happened here. Isn't it a requirement for cars to have emergency brakes for situations when the normal method of braking fails?

tough 3y ago
There's the parking break, but depending on how fast you're going it might be a bad idea to use that instead of crashing in a straight line (you probably gonna swivel)
pjc50 3y ago
The handbrake is usually fully manual, but it's also not terribly strong especially against an electric motor in its optimal torque region. That leaves you with the regular brakes. Now, I don't know if they're vacuum-assist hydraulic or brake-by-wire on electric cars such as this ..
- giantg2 3y ago
  Every car has some form of brake by wire today. The independent traction control and stability manager relies on electronic intervention between the pedal and the brakes. Even on hydraulic systems they have actuators (a box under the hood) between your master cylinder and caliper.
  - pjc50 3y ago
    I drive an almost 20 year old car. I'm going to have such a future shock when I eventually get a new one :(
    - giantg2 3y ago
      I got a work trim truck about 5 years ago. No camera, no OnStar, no Bluetooth, no key fob, regular turn key, manual parking brake, etc. It's actually very basic and I love that. It was cheaper than any midsized or large SUV. I would love it if I could keep it and turn it electric one day. Once the battery densities are 1kwh/kg it would probably swap nicely by replacing the engine/accessories/gas tank with batteries and replacing the transmission with an electric motor. The electronics in most electric cars are a turn off for me. I want it to be simple.
      - taylodl 3y ago
        And my grandfather would have complained about the electronics in your work trim truck from 5 years ago. Compared to trucks from the 60's and 70's, that truck was a computer marvel with computers and sensors galore!
        giantg2 3y ago
        Yeah, but the main difference I see is that the new tech being added now had almost nothing to do with driving or improving safety. DFI, ABS, etc great. Infotainment, touchscreen vs buttons, heated seats, autopilot, App to control my car, etc is just garbage I don't need or want, and certainly don't want to pay for.
        taylodl 3y ago
        I don't disagree with you, but I'm what a lot of people would refer to as an old fart! So I'm probably not going to help your case. It will be interesting though to see what went wrong in this case.
    - taylodl 3y ago
      They've been doing this for nearly 30 years now, to varying degrees. It all started with ABS. Then they added traction control, then they added regenerative braking (for EV's) and so on. It's been decades since your brake pedal has had a direct mechanical connection to your drums and your calipers. Even ABS adds computers and sensors between your pedal and the brake. Generally, these systems are very reliable, but occasionally things go wrong. So far the analysis has been over an order of magnitude of lives have been saved by using this technology than have been lost due to its going awry. Ultimately, this is the argument that's going to be used for self-driving cars.
- ihattendorf 3y ago
  Handbrakes are frequently being replaced by electronic parking brakes.
- buildsjets 3y ago
  Both of my old-fashioned ICE cars have electrically actuated handbrakes. Audi/Volkswagen started implementing them at least 10 years ago.
- scrumper 3y ago
  Regular braking on electric cars partly involves the motors themselves - this regenerative braking helps to convert the kinetic energy of the vehicle back into stored energy in the battery by turning the motors into generators (vs. turning it into as heat as happens with standard friction brakes.) If you ever drive an electric car, you'll find the "engine braking" (i.e. the slowdown you get when you take your foot off the accelerator pedal) is quite a bit more pronounced than on an ICE car. There are also friction brakes of course, but it's possible the driver, standing on the pedal to try and slow his runaway car, had caused them to overheat, which renders them completely useless.
  - mint2 3y ago
    The slowdown when taking your foot off the pedal is set by the mfg. it is by no means universal even if it’s common to have significant braking. Some cars are tuned to mimic the coasting of ice vehicles.
    - scrumper 3y ago
      Yeah. And that's part of why all those cars have fully electronically controlled brakes. They're all balanced so when you put your foot on the brake pedal, the car combines calipers and regenerative braking to induce the deceleration that a driver would expect. From what I've read, it's mostly regenerative unless you're going very slowly or you're braking hard at speed.
caiusdurling 3y ago
I think the MG4 has a brake by wire system, although those are supposed to have a failsafe built in but if it's not electro-hydraulic there might not be a mechanical link between the pedal and the callipers. Handbrake will be electric too, so activation depends on enough of the car brain functioning. Keyless ignition usually has an override for a running car too, in a ford pushing the button three times within a few seconds turns the combustion engine off. Wonder if that's the same in electric cars, otherwise the only way I can think to kill it is isolate the batteries, same as emergency services would do in an accident.
- EricE 3y ago
  Another, more detailed account link to elsewhere in the comments pointed out that the police were even on the phone with engineers from the car manufacturer - if there was such a magic sequence apparently it didn't work. Yeah! Software Everywhere!
Simulacra 3y ago
60 Minutes had a program where they looked at cars that did not stop when you press the break. And all of their tests, no matter what, even if they were holding down the gas pedal, pressing the break, brings the car to a stop. Unless there is shown to be a physical defect or fault that prevented the brakes engaging, I am inclined to believe the driver is at fault.
- pjc50 3y ago
  Was this the good old "Toyota unintended acceleration" fiasco? I still don't know who to believe on that one.
- giantg2 3y ago
  "Unless there is shown to be a physical defect or fault that prevented the brakes engaging, I am inclined to believe the driver is at fault." What about an electronic defect? That's the interesting part to me - you're relying on the data logs from a system for court which in theory might not match what actually happened and may not leave an observable physical defect. For example but not specific to this case, if there was an error that actuated a brake through the traction control system but it wasn't recorded due to the initiating error.
- michaelt 3y ago
  I'm sympathetic to car manufacturers in situations of very brief unintended acceleration, where the driver could plausibly have hit the accelerator instead of the brake, or something loose in the car could have got stuck under one of the pedals. But in this case, the problem lasted long enough for the driver to call the police, and a convoy of police vehicles to escort him for some 15 minutes. To me it sounds like the driver's reaction was calm and controlled, with plenty of time to assess the situation. Another report on the same incident [1] says the driver tried the park button, the engine off button, police got advice from engineers, they even tried passing the car key to another car. And that the dash showed "nine warning lights." Given these facts, it seems very unlikely the driver was, for example, confusing the accelerator and the brake, or failing to press the brake sufficiently hard. [1] https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/motors/11320530/electric-vehicle-car-brakes-malfunction-glasgow-police/ https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/motors/11320530/electric-ve...
rightbyte 3y ago
If you got a steel wire parking brake you won't even notice pulling it at speed on many models. (Don't try this at home ...). You can usually apply more torque on front wheel drive with the motor than the brake can hold since the front is heavier. Newer cars usually have some electronic parking brake that might just refuse to do its thing. And the key is not connected to a relay over the batteries usually nowadays. ABS vents can lock you out from using the main wheel brakes. Welcome to the future of drive by wire cars.
- giantg2 3y ago
  I hate electronic parking brakes. WTF are they good for in an emergency? I guess that's why they call them parking brakes and not emergency brakes. Are we really that lazy that we can't put on a brake manually anymore?
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Because most modern car brakes are complex beats with tons of electronic wizardry. So parking brakes are using those existing electronics. Makes sense. Not that it would mean much simply being mechanical, I have a car where the parking brake mechanically enganges at the rear prop shaft. And believe, all that brake does is supporting parking if the road isn't too steep.
    - giantg2 3y ago
      What electronics would the parking brake need to share? It shouldn't need ABS/stability/traction/etc. It's just an on/off state with wither a mechanical or electronic actuator.
      - hef19898 3y ago
        And allmof that actuators include ABS, ESP and whatnot.
        giantg2 3y ago
autoexec 3y ago
This article (https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/motors/11320530/electric-vehicle-car-brakes-malfunction-glasgow-police/ https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/motors/11320530/electric-ve...), which features a picture of the driver looking displeased, doesn't mention the emergency break but says that he tried everything, even turning off the engine. Police had engineers from the car company on the phone trying to come up with ways to stop the car. I have to assume the emergency brake came up as an option. Maybe activating the emergency brake requires using a touch screen?
- EricE 3y ago
  The emergency brake is probably electronic and it wouldn't shock me if it was locked out if the car was in motion or defeated by some other similarly idiotic assumption. I hope I'm able to be buried in my 20+ year old cars at this point.
jiveturkey 3y ago
the "emergency" brake is actually the parking brake. it cannot hold up against engine power. if you have a car you can try this yourself. apparently the car in question was stuck in a mode where there was a constant torque request (throttle setting) that was enough to overpower the brake. or, the car helpfully wouldn't allow engaging of the parking brake while the car was still in "D" mode. i would also have tried opening the door. many cars will take the car out of gear when a door is opened. (frustratingly to me, as it can in rare occasion be helpful to crack open the door when in reverse, to look down for parking lines etc. a very loud warning chime would be better for me personally than this nanny feature.)
dragonwriter 3y ago
> Isn't it a requirement for cars to have emergency brakes for situations when the normal method of braking fails? No. Cars usually have parking brakes, which can be more or less useful as emergency brakes, but that is not their primary function and they are not designed or usually very useful for that purpose for a vehicle stuck with more than minimal power being applied.

slillibri 3y ago

I know nothing of electric vehicles, but couldn’t he turn the vehicle off?

hbrav 3y ago
I don't think it has a 'power' switch that you can flip to cut power. In fact I'm not sure many ICE vehicles will do that these days. If I press the 'engine start / stop' button in my car while I'm not stopped, I don't think it will stop the engine.
- cabalamat 3y ago
  >I don't think it has a 'power' switch that you can flip to cut power. There should be. And an entirely manual brake.
- whelp_24 3y ago
  In gas vehicles pressing and holding it should turn it off you are in motion.
  - theshrike79 3y ago
    It will also turn off power brakes and power steering, making it really hard to control.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - whelp_24 3y ago
      It is exaggerated, when you're moving it's much easier to steer. The hydrolics will also stay pressurized for a bit, long enough for you to get to the side of the road. The scenario where you need to cut the power probably means the small risk is worth it.
- altairprime 3y ago
  It will if you hold it down long enough.

atlasunshrugged 3y ago

Worst viral marketing campaign for a reboot ever? Speed 3: Slow & Steady

diggan 3y ago

Short and concise statement from Police Scotland: > Around 10.35pm on Sunday 1 October, we received a report of a driver unable to stop his electric car on the A803 heading towards Kirkintilloch. The car was travelling at a low speed and officers carried out a controlled halt with the aid of a police vehicle. There was no damage to either vehicle. The driver arranged for the vehicle to be recovered

yumraj 3y ago

For others who may have been curious like me: MG Motor UK Limited (MG Motor) is an automotive company owned by SAIC Motor UK, headquartered in London, owned by the Shanghai-based Chinese state-owned automaker SAIC Motor. [0] [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MG_Motor https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MG_Motor

stuckkeys 3y ago

I guess Toyota is not the only car that moves forward even after you break.

jiveturkey 3y ago
brake
- stuckkeys 3y ago
  [flagged]

EricE 3y ago

Fly by wire - controlled by software. God help us all.