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Most of Us Are Blissfully Ignorant About How Much Rancid Olive Oil We Use (2016)

57 points by throw0101b 3y ago

Double_a_92 3y ago
I doubt that the oil is actually rancid, as in like rotten over time. It's just the hot-pressed oil from the already cold-pressed olives and their pits. Or it's oil from actually ripe olives, which is not as "healthy" for some reason. Also the good olive oil does have a really bitter after taste, that people would really not enjoy.
- cogwheel 3y ago
  Rancid isn't the same as rotten. Oil going rancid is about oxidation and other chemical degradation. This has nothing to do with "health" of the oil...
  - ta988 3y ago
    It has to do with the health effects of the oil. It radically (pun intended and yes I know that's not the only mechanism) transfoms the lipid profiles and generate compounds which for some we know may have health impact.
    - nobodyandproud 3y ago
      Do you mean that the oxidized oils will have less (or none) of the health benefits that the fresh oils would?
      - ta988 3y ago
        That's what a few studies seem to hint at. As with most food stuff studies we need time and lots of replication. And make sure that the food lobbies didn't mess up like what happened with the sugar industry.
  - haswell 3y ago
    The usage of “rancid” in everyday conversation is exclusively referring to something that “went bad” in my experience. The top definitions of the word agree, e.g.: > having an unpleasant smell or taste usually from chemical change or decomposition > having a rank, unpleasant, stale smell or taste, as through decomposition, especially of fats or oils
- jayemar 3y ago
  What is your reason for saying this? The article does discuss rancid, not just mis-categorized pressing.
  - Double_a_92 3y ago
    Because I assume for most people "rancid" means "gone bad", instead of some technical word about oxidation of fats. The article almost reads like the US is getting old expired oil from Europe, while it's actually getting good oil that has just been produced in a different way.
    - Maken 3y ago
      I think the article does reflect the actual state of the oil sold in the USA. The linked report [1] goes into deeper detail: They take into account adulteration of "extra virgin" oil with refined oil, water and oil past its expiration date. They call the later "rancid" olive oil because olive oil never really gets rotten, over time (a couple of years at most) it tastes worse because most of the organic components degenerate until it is essentially just liquid fat. That's as bad as olive oil can get, and in that state it could not be sold in most countries of origin. [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20170607233619/http://c1.oliveoiltim.es/library/ucd-2010-report.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20170607233619/http://c1.oliveoi...
      - sumtechguy 3y ago
        Most of the oils I end up getting are of the blend type. As usually that is about all you can get at a grocery store. The labeling is all over the place and near zero enforcement of what is going on. I have on 2 different occasions gotten 'good' oil. It has haunted me since. As finding good stuff is tough. Where as before I did not care.
- Maken 3y ago
  >the good olive oil does have a really bitter after taste, that people would really not enjoy. That heavily depends on the olive variety. Try Arbequina if you want sweeter olive oil. Also, the chemical composition of the olive do change over time and very ripe olives produce a less greenish, mild flavored oil, but it's not clear one is healthier than the other.
silvestrov 3y ago
This articles assumes all people are good at smelling and tasting and that it is just a matter of education. But just like some people has bad eye sight, some people has bad smell and taste abilities.
awicz 3y ago
I've always been satisfied with my grocery-bought olive oil, but also curious as to what "good" olive oil actually tastes like. Is there a brand or vendor in the US that sells such a product?
- Double_a_92 3y ago
  It tastes relatively bad. Almost like having some fresh cut grass in it, and leaves a quite bitter aftertaste in your throat.
  - zingababba 3y ago
    I just got back from overseas and while there went to a Michelin star restaurant where we got to sample different fresh olive oils and I can confirm they did taste somewhat like grass.
  - jjoonathan 3y ago
    100%, that was exactly what it brought to mind for me as well: like I had reached into the lawn mower bag and sprinkled in some essence of grass clippings. No thanks. If someone wants to call olive oil without grass-clippings-taste "rancid," it's a free country, but that term comes with overbearing negative connotations so I'd personally prefer "aged" or something.
  - cycrutchfield 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - jjoonathan 3y ago
      Olive oil has flavor other than the grass-clippings taste and it's absolutely OK to enjoy one but not the other.
  - unethical_ban 3y ago
    https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-olive-oil/ https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-olive-oil/ The top recommendation is there, among other reasons, for that taste: >This oil starts with a slight caramel flavor, but a bitter pungency blooms followed by a pleasant piquancy. We all enjoyed its grassy flavor, which one panelist said gave her “summer vegetable garden vibes.” The oil was rich but not overly fatty. One tester observed, “The way my tongue is responding reminds me of a good matcha—there’s that astringency, and then a long finish.”
bowsamic 3y ago
Blissful sounds about right, because I don't care. It smells good, tastes good, and works just fine. Also, I buy the cheapest organic EVOO from Lidl, so I'm not exactly paying a lot.
dasil003 3y ago
On the other hand if you eat rancid coconut oil you’ll know
hbn 3y ago
Kinda just sounds like we're ignorant of the definition of "rancid" and automatically associate it with "gone bad." If you didn't know how cheese was made you could say we're blissfully ignorant about how much curdled milk we eat.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
rob74 3y ago
> rancid olive oil is less bitter than the good stuff I remember tasting the olive oil in my cupboard a few weeks ago and being slightly worried that it tasted pretty bitter. Sounds like it actually has to taste bitter - somehow I expected rancid oil to be more bitter than good oil, not less...
- Maken 3y ago
  If the oil was supposed to be bitter and it no longer is, that means all the organic compounds (including the aromas) have degenerated and the oil is essentially just the "oil" part. Past expiration date should smell and taste a bit foul but not bitter.
- hn8305823 3y ago
  It's kind of like how soft cookies get hard when they go stale, but hard cookies get soft. Whatever it is when fresh, it's the opposite when stale.
throwaway167 3y ago
> The presence of defects disqualifies an oil from being classified as extra virgin What's the definition of (not necessarily extra-) virgin olive oil? I had it stuck in my head it should be from the first olives of the harvest. But after several minutes of ddging I can find a reference.
- IggleSniggle 3y ago
  TIL. I thought it meant that it had not been purified (more of the "olive" still present in the oil).
  - Maken 3y ago
    That is filtered vs. unfiltered, and has nothing to do with the "virgin" or "extra virgin" categories.
- elevaet 3y ago
  It's to do with the pressing, not the harvest. AFAIK the first press of the olives is EVOO and after that they have other ways of extracting remaining oils (e.g. Pomace is a semi-chemical process on the remaining pulp)
  - throwaway167 3y ago
    That must be it - the first pressing of the olives for extra virgin, as I was sure there was a 'first' something. Interesting this definition is slightly different from that in the article, a different epistemology: The first pressing would require trust (however arrived at) in a supply chain to declare, the second measuring the resulting product (positivist trust by measurement); the first encouraging diversity (artisanry?) perhaps over a less diverse (more verifiable?) final product with the second. Thanks for your answer. And to the several other commenters.
- Maken 3y ago
  "Virgin" oil is obtained form strictly mechanical means, that is, from pressing the olives without additional chemical or thermal processing. "Extra virgin" oil also implies the oil is pure and of good quality, which means it has no additives and the acidity, bitterness, etc are within certain parameters. The harvest is a different dimension of olive oil categories .
crazygringo 3y ago
I am extremely confused by this article. Rancid oil of any kind is foul and disgusting. You'd gag if you tried to eat something made with it. Yet this article says things like: > Rancidity, for example, isn’t generally a sought after quality in edible products. And yet, when it comes to olive oil in the U.S., people like it. Why? Partly, because rancid olive oil is less bitter than the good stuff. Is this article using some definition of "rancid" different from the rest of us? I totally get that some people don't like really fruity flavorful spicy olive oil. They want something more neutral. And that's fine. But nobody in their right mind is picking something rancid. Nor would a supermarket ever sell it. So I can't tell if the author doesn't know what rancid actually means, or if there's some separate food science definition of rancid that is different from everyday use -- but that the article doesn't bother to acknowledge or explain.
- Maken 3y ago
  > But nobody in their right mind is picking something rancid. Nor would a supermarket ever sell it. Unless it is cheese.
  - greenhearth 3y ago
    Cheese is not rancid. Cheese is fermented, which is a completely different, harmless process
    - chmod775 3y ago
      > Rancidification is the process of complete or incomplete autoxidation or hydrolysis of fats and oils when exposed to air, light, moisture, or bacterial action, producing short-chain aldehydes, ketones and free fatty acids. > Fermentation is a metabolic process that produces chemical changes in organic substances through the action of enzymes. So by those definitions, rancidification through enzyme-catalysed oxidation, which by proxy probably includes anything microbial, is fermentation. Vice versa aged cheese is produced through rancidification. Doesn't sound completely different to me. Disclaimer: A lot of the terms in those Wikipedia articles go over my head, so feel free to correct me.
karaterobot 3y ago
> There’s nothing inherently wrong with liking rancid olive oil. There is, however, a problem with thinking you’re buying extra virgin and getting low-quality oil instead. For starters, because extra virgin oil is harder to make, it commands higher prices. But most people are buying extremely cheap olive oil. The "extra virgin" designation does not seem to be strongly associated with price in grocery stores. What is associated with price is the "made in Italy" label, compared to oils made in countries near Italy, or even California. And it's such a sharp price difference that relatively few people are buying authentic Italian EVOO anyway—3x or 4x as much, in my estimation. Most people are buying big jugs of olive oil from, e.g., Turkey, and they're totally fine with it. They don't taste the difference, as the article notes. So, if there's nothing inherently wrong with rancid olive oil, and people are getting a year's supply for $20 already, then what exactly is the problem?
- lainga 3y ago
  I go out of my way to find olive oil from outside Italy since I heard the Italian olive oil industry is tied up with organised crime. Most common alternative sources are Tunisia and California. It's hard sometimes because you'll see olive oils labelled "Greek" or "Tunisian", and then you turn the bottle over and it says "BOTTLED IN ITALY"...
- jancsika 3y ago
  > So, if there's nothing inherently wrong with rancid olive oil, and people are getting a year's supply for $20 already, then what exactly is the problem? I mean, if you thought you bought a new Iphone but it's actually an Android phone, you could still download apps and send messages and stuff. What would the problem be in that case? IMO it's that a company that is misrepresenting an Iphone that way is certainly capable of doing all kinds of other mendacious behavior. So Perhaps your Turkish olive oil is a mixture of some unknown percentage of (rancid) olive oil with cheaper oil(s). Perhaps its not olive oil at all, but just cheaper oil colored to look like olive oil. At some point, having a namespace clash that large is going to cause problems.
- petre 3y ago
  To my knowledge the best comercially available olive oils that you can get from stores in the EU market are Greek and Spanish olive oils. Italians do have some very good olive oils but one can only get them either from the farm or a specialty store.
Xcelerate 3y ago
I went on a trip to Italy a few years ago and picked up some Laudemio Castello di Poppiano olive oil on-site. When I got back home, I set up a blind taste test between that and Colavita for friends and family. I preferred the Laudemio but was astounded that everyone else (8 people maybe?) preferred the Colavita. Go figure. That said, I did the same blind test for balsamic vinegar and everyone vastly preferred the real aged stuff over the American balsamic.

57 points by throw0101b 3y ago

I doubt that the oil is actually rancid, as in like rotten over time. It's just the hot-pressed oil from the already cold-pressed olives and their pits. Or it's oil from actually ripe olives, which is not as "healthy" for some reason. Also the good olive oil does have a really bitter after taste, that people would really not enjoy.

cogwheel 3y ago
Rancid isn't the same as rotten. Oil going rancid is about oxidation and other chemical degradation. This has nothing to do with "health" of the oil...
- ta988 3y ago
  It has to do with the health effects of the oil. It radically (pun intended and yes I know that's not the only mechanism) transfoms the lipid profiles and generate compounds which for some we know may have health impact.
  - nobodyandproud 3y ago
    Do you mean that the oxidized oils will have less (or none) of the health benefits that the fresh oils would?
    - ta988 3y ago
      That's what a few studies seem to hint at. As with most food stuff studies we need time and lots of replication. And make sure that the food lobbies didn't mess up like what happened with the sugar industry.
- haswell 3y ago
  The usage of “rancid” in everyday conversation is exclusively referring to something that “went bad” in my experience. The top definitions of the word agree, e.g.: > having an unpleasant smell or taste usually from chemical change or decomposition > having a rank, unpleasant, stale smell or taste, as through decomposition, especially of fats or oils
jayemar 3y ago
What is your reason for saying this? The article does discuss rancid, not just mis-categorized pressing.
- Double_a_92 3y ago
  Because I assume for most people "rancid" means "gone bad", instead of some technical word about oxidation of fats. The article almost reads like the US is getting old expired oil from Europe, while it's actually getting good oil that has just been produced in a different way.
  - Maken 3y ago
    I think the article does reflect the actual state of the oil sold in the USA. The linked report [1] goes into deeper detail: They take into account adulteration of "extra virgin" oil with refined oil, water and oil past its expiration date. They call the later "rancid" olive oil because olive oil never really gets rotten, over time (a couple of years at most) it tastes worse because most of the organic components degenerate until it is essentially just liquid fat. That's as bad as olive oil can get, and in that state it could not be sold in most countries of origin. [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20170607233619/http://c1.oliveoiltim.es/library/ucd-2010-report.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20170607233619/http://c1.oliveoi...
    - sumtechguy 3y ago
      Most of the oils I end up getting are of the blend type. As usually that is about all you can get at a grocery store. The labeling is all over the place and near zero enforcement of what is going on. I have on 2 different occasions gotten 'good' oil. It has haunted me since. As finding good stuff is tough. Where as before I did not care.
Maken 3y ago
>the good olive oil does have a really bitter after taste, that people would really not enjoy. That heavily depends on the olive variety. Try Arbequina if you want sweeter olive oil. Also, the chemical composition of the olive do change over time and very ripe olives produce a less greenish, mild flavored oil, but it's not clear one is healthier than the other.

silvestrov 3y ago

This articles assumes all people are good at smelling and tasting and that it is just a matter of education. But just like some people has bad eye sight, some people has bad smell and taste abilities.

awicz 3y ago

I've always been satisfied with my grocery-bought olive oil, but also curious as to what "good" olive oil actually tastes like. Is there a brand or vendor in the US that sells such a product?

Double_a_92 3y ago
It tastes relatively bad. Almost like having some fresh cut grass in it, and leaves a quite bitter aftertaste in your throat.
- zingababba 3y ago
  I just got back from overseas and while there went to a Michelin star restaurant where we got to sample different fresh olive oils and I can confirm they did taste somewhat like grass.
- jjoonathan 3y ago
  100%, that was exactly what it brought to mind for me as well: like I had reached into the lawn mower bag and sprinkled in some essence of grass clippings. No thanks. If someone wants to call olive oil without grass-clippings-taste "rancid," it's a free country, but that term comes with overbearing negative connotations so I'd personally prefer "aged" or something.
- cycrutchfield 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - jjoonathan 3y ago
    Olive oil has flavor other than the grass-clippings taste and it's absolutely OK to enjoy one but not the other.
- unethical_ban 3y ago
  https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-olive-oil/ https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-olive-oil/ The top recommendation is there, among other reasons, for that taste: >This oil starts with a slight caramel flavor, but a bitter pungency blooms followed by a pleasant piquancy. We all enjoyed its grassy flavor, which one panelist said gave her “summer vegetable garden vibes.” The oil was rich but not overly fatty. One tester observed, “The way my tongue is responding reminds me of a good matcha—there’s that astringency, and then a long finish.”

bowsamic 3y ago

Blissful sounds about right, because I don't care. It smells good, tastes good, and works just fine. Also, I buy the cheapest organic EVOO from Lidl, so I'm not exactly paying a lot.

dasil003 3y ago

On the other hand if you eat rancid coconut oil you’ll know

hbn 3y ago

Kinda just sounds like we're ignorant of the definition of "rancid" and automatically associate it with "gone bad." If you didn't know how cheese was made you could say we're blissfully ignorant about how much curdled milk we eat.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

rob74 3y ago

> rancid olive oil is less bitter than the good stuff I remember tasting the olive oil in my cupboard a few weeks ago and being slightly worried that it tasted pretty bitter. Sounds like it actually has to taste bitter - somehow I expected rancid oil to be more bitter than good oil, not less...

Maken 3y ago
If the oil was supposed to be bitter and it no longer is, that means all the organic compounds (including the aromas) have degenerated and the oil is essentially just the "oil" part. Past expiration date should smell and taste a bit foul but not bitter.
hn8305823 3y ago
It's kind of like how soft cookies get hard when they go stale, but hard cookies get soft. Whatever it is when fresh, it's the opposite when stale.

throwaway167 3y ago

> The presence of defects disqualifies an oil from being classified as extra virgin What's the definition of (not necessarily extra-) virgin olive oil? I had it stuck in my head it should be from the first olives of the harvest. But after several minutes of ddging I can find a reference.

IggleSniggle 3y ago
TIL. I thought it meant that it had not been purified (more of the "olive" still present in the oil).
- Maken 3y ago
  That is filtered vs. unfiltered, and has nothing to do with the "virgin" or "extra virgin" categories.
elevaet 3y ago
It's to do with the pressing, not the harvest. AFAIK the first press of the olives is EVOO and after that they have other ways of extracting remaining oils (e.g. Pomace is a semi-chemical process on the remaining pulp)
- throwaway167 3y ago
  That must be it - the first pressing of the olives for extra virgin, as I was sure there was a 'first' something. Interesting this definition is slightly different from that in the article, a different epistemology: The first pressing would require trust (however arrived at) in a supply chain to declare, the second measuring the resulting product (positivist trust by measurement); the first encouraging diversity (artisanry?) perhaps over a less diverse (more verifiable?) final product with the second. Thanks for your answer. And to the several other commenters.
Maken 3y ago
"Virgin" oil is obtained form strictly mechanical means, that is, from pressing the olives without additional chemical or thermal processing. "Extra virgin" oil also implies the oil is pure and of good quality, which means it has no additives and the acidity, bitterness, etc are within certain parameters. The harvest is a different dimension of olive oil categories .

crazygringo 3y ago

I am extremely confused by this article. Rancid oil of any kind is foul and disgusting. You'd gag if you tried to eat something made with it. Yet this article says things like: > Rancidity, for example, isn’t generally a sought after quality in edible products. And yet, when it comes to olive oil in the U.S., people like it. Why? Partly, because rancid olive oil is less bitter than the good stuff. Is this article using some definition of "rancid" different from the rest of us? I totally get that some people don't like really fruity flavorful spicy olive oil. They want something more neutral. And that's fine. But nobody in their right mind is picking something rancid. Nor would a supermarket ever sell it. So I can't tell if the author doesn't know what rancid actually means, or if there's some separate food science definition of rancid that is different from everyday use -- but that the article doesn't bother to acknowledge or explain.

Maken 3y ago
> But nobody in their right mind is picking something rancid. Nor would a supermarket ever sell it. Unless it is cheese.
- greenhearth 3y ago
  Cheese is not rancid. Cheese is fermented, which is a completely different, harmless process
  - chmod775 3y ago
    > Rancidification is the process of complete or incomplete autoxidation or hydrolysis of fats and oils when exposed to air, light, moisture, or bacterial action, producing short-chain aldehydes, ketones and free fatty acids. > Fermentation is a metabolic process that produces chemical changes in organic substances through the action of enzymes. So by those definitions, rancidification through enzyme-catalysed oxidation, which by proxy probably includes anything microbial, is fermentation. Vice versa aged cheese is produced through rancidification. Doesn't sound completely different to me. Disclaimer: A lot of the terms in those Wikipedia articles go over my head, so feel free to correct me.

karaterobot 3y ago

> There’s nothing inherently wrong with liking rancid olive oil. There is, however, a problem with thinking you’re buying extra virgin and getting low-quality oil instead. For starters, because extra virgin oil is harder to make, it commands higher prices. But most people are buying extremely cheap olive oil. The "extra virgin" designation does not seem to be strongly associated with price in grocery stores. What is associated with price is the "made in Italy" label, compared to oils made in countries near Italy, or even California. And it's such a sharp price difference that relatively few people are buying authentic Italian EVOO anyway—3x or 4x as much, in my estimation. Most people are buying big jugs of olive oil from, e.g., Turkey, and they're totally fine with it. They don't taste the difference, as the article notes. So, if there's nothing inherently wrong with rancid olive oil, and people are getting a year's supply for $20 already, then what exactly is the problem?

lainga 3y ago
I go out of my way to find olive oil from outside Italy since I heard the Italian olive oil industry is tied up with organised crime. Most common alternative sources are Tunisia and California. It's hard sometimes because you'll see olive oils labelled "Greek" or "Tunisian", and then you turn the bottle over and it says "BOTTLED IN ITALY"...
jancsika 3y ago
> So, if there's nothing inherently wrong with rancid olive oil, and people are getting a year's supply for $20 already, then what exactly is the problem? I mean, if you thought you bought a new Iphone but it's actually an Android phone, you could still download apps and send messages and stuff. What would the problem be in that case? IMO it's that a company that is misrepresenting an Iphone that way is certainly capable of doing all kinds of other mendacious behavior. So Perhaps your Turkish olive oil is a mixture of some unknown percentage of (rancid) olive oil with cheaper oil(s). Perhaps its not olive oil at all, but just cheaper oil colored to look like olive oil. At some point, having a namespace clash that large is going to cause problems.
petre 3y ago
To my knowledge the best comercially available olive oils that you can get from stores in the EU market are Greek and Spanish olive oils. Italians do have some very good olive oils but one can only get them either from the farm or a specialty store.

Xcelerate 3y ago

I went on a trip to Italy a few years ago and picked up some Laudemio Castello di Poppiano olive oil on-site. When I got back home, I set up a blind taste test between that and Colavita for friends and family. I preferred the Laudemio but was astounded that everyone else (8 people maybe?) preferred the Colavita. Go figure. That said, I did the same blind test for balsamic vinegar and everyone vastly preferred the real aged stuff over the American balsamic.