4 ms·

I am more and more convinced that the Internet is a net negative for discourse and human socialisation, and no one is really exploring this possibility. We are

by sph 3y ago

I am more and more convinced that the Internet is a net negative for discourse and human socialisation, and no one is really exploring this possibility. We are all trying to make the social media experiment work and I am horrified by its result. The more we tweak and add to it (upvotes, user moderators, likes, retweets, the Algorithm), the worse it gets. We're so used to the fast pace of modern science that we forget cultural evolution sometimes takes hundreds of years. What if we are 500 years before enough Internet philosophers have taught us how to behave online?

robertlagrant 3y ago
> I am more and more convinced that the Internet is a net negative for discourse and human socialisation, and no one is really exploring this possibility. A huge amount has been written and spoken about this.
- sph 3y ago
  Apparently, not enough, or not forceful enough for a contingent of people to decide to quit the Internet for good. Where are the modern day anti-Internet luddites? Talking about it on a blog or, worse, posting about it on Twitter doesn't count, sorry.
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    > Where are the modern day anti-Internet luddites? They probably don't use the Internet.
    - ethbr1 3y ago
      Exactly. You know how much I post about how I don't use Facebook on Facebook? Zero. You know how many people who don't use Facebook someone on Facebook would believe exist? Zero. If you really want to find people who don't do a thing... go find them. As a starting place, Wyoming has whole swaths of folks who don't use email.
  - nosequel 3y ago
    So that's the rub, the people who realize it is horrible actually quit on it. Lots of people talk about getting of social media, but very few actually delete all of their accounts. I've removed every social account I have around four years ago. I still have a HN account, but that's about it. I talk to my family and friends about how dangerous I think social media is to our society if the topic comes up, but frankly not many people want to hear it. If I really pressed, I'd end up being "that guy" who talks too much about any topic. I really don't think the majority of folks are going to quit social media even if every day the NYTimes, CNN, Fox News, whoever put out news stories on how horrendous it is.
    - robertlagrant 3y ago
      My compromise is I have Facebook and Twitter accounts, but not the apps, so I have to use a browser on my phone to look at them. This means I can still see content, but no notifications and the friction is high. I'd rather go on Youtube and see what people I subscribe to are making videos about.
agubelu 3y ago
The Internet as a infrastructure, I think it's probably a huge net positive. Social networks on the other hand, particularly Twitter and Facebook, I would agree we would be better off without them right now.
- tremon 3y ago
  Social networks as a concept are also a huge net positive, in my view. Corporate leeches trying to monetize everything about human interaction, we're better off without. Which does include Facebook and increasingly includes Xitter.
  - sph 3y ago
    I disagree. While corporate interests make social networks worse, regular people are tend to be major asshats on any social network, a concept that was already known in the late 90s and today it is widespread, and crosses any cultural, economical and contextual reason. It is safe to say humans on the internet eventually behave like asshats. The real difference between social media and real life is that you can get punched in the face for being an asshat, and in general we have a lot of brain power dedicated to making sure we fit into our tribal group and physical context. Mind you, I did not say the Internet is an absolute negative, but in my view, the enormous benefit of instantaneous communication is negated by the impossibility of measured discourse with more than two dozen strangers.
    - fennecfoxy 3y ago
      >you can get punched in the face for being an asshat So you believe this is right, then? I think that's literally the biggest problem with our species; it all comes down to violence, in the end. Doesn't matter how much we've progressed society, women's rights, gay right's etc - apparently the rule of law is still "yeah, well, I can punch you in the face!" and so long as the puncher fits into societal norms, everyone will clap and cheer! Damn we really do just form layers upon layers of tribes, and boy do we still have a lust for tribal warfare.
HPsquared 3y ago
Culture learns by experience.
ethbr1 3y ago
It was a pretty settled point two decades ago. https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19/green-blackboards-and-other-anomalies# https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19/green-blackboa... There was maybe a lull during the early-Facebook era, as more grandparents adopted the platform while retaining their manners and social decency. And then they too realized they could post whatever they wanted about "The {Noun}s" without consequence. And now we're here again. There's a lot to be said for talking to someone's face and having to deal with the consequences of your words directly.
datavirtue 3y ago
The gig reddits are heaped full of people trying to divine the algorithms.

by sph 3y ago

robertlagrant 3y ago

> I am more and more convinced that the Internet is a net negative for discourse and human socialisation, and no one is really exploring this possibility. A huge amount has been written and spoken about this.

sph 3y ago
Apparently, not enough, or not forceful enough for a contingent of people to decide to quit the Internet for good. Where are the modern day anti-Internet luddites? Talking about it on a blog or, worse, posting about it on Twitter doesn't count, sorry.
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  > Where are the modern day anti-Internet luddites? They probably don't use the Internet.
  - ethbr1 3y ago
    Exactly. You know how much I post about how I don't use Facebook on Facebook? Zero. You know how many people who don't use Facebook someone on Facebook would believe exist? Zero. If you really want to find people who don't do a thing... go find them. As a starting place, Wyoming has whole swaths of folks who don't use email.
- nosequel 3y ago
  So that's the rub, the people who realize it is horrible actually quit on it. Lots of people talk about getting of social media, but very few actually delete all of their accounts. I've removed every social account I have around four years ago. I still have a HN account, but that's about it. I talk to my family and friends about how dangerous I think social media is to our society if the topic comes up, but frankly not many people want to hear it. If I really pressed, I'd end up being "that guy" who talks too much about any topic. I really don't think the majority of folks are going to quit social media even if every day the NYTimes, CNN, Fox News, whoever put out news stories on how horrendous it is.
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    My compromise is I have Facebook and Twitter accounts, but not the apps, so I have to use a browser on my phone to look at them. This means I can still see content, but no notifications and the friction is high. I'd rather go on Youtube and see what people I subscribe to are making videos about.

agubelu 3y ago

The Internet as a infrastructure, I think it's probably a huge net positive. Social networks on the other hand, particularly Twitter and Facebook, I would agree we would be better off without them right now.

tremon 3y ago
Social networks as a concept are also a huge net positive, in my view. Corporate leeches trying to monetize everything about human interaction, we're better off without. Which does include Facebook and increasingly includes Xitter.
- sph 3y ago
  I disagree. While corporate interests make social networks worse, regular people are tend to be major asshats on any social network, a concept that was already known in the late 90s and today it is widespread, and crosses any cultural, economical and contextual reason. It is safe to say humans on the internet eventually behave like asshats. The real difference between social media and real life is that you can get punched in the face for being an asshat, and in general we have a lot of brain power dedicated to making sure we fit into our tribal group and physical context. Mind you, I did not say the Internet is an absolute negative, but in my view, the enormous benefit of instantaneous communication is negated by the impossibility of measured discourse with more than two dozen strangers.
  - fennecfoxy 3y ago
    >you can get punched in the face for being an asshat So you believe this is right, then? I think that's literally the biggest problem with our species; it all comes down to violence, in the end. Doesn't matter how much we've progressed society, women's rights, gay right's etc - apparently the rule of law is still "yeah, well, I can punch you in the face!" and so long as the puncher fits into societal norms, everyone will clap and cheer! Damn we really do just form layers upon layers of tribes, and boy do we still have a lust for tribal warfare.

HPsquared 3y ago

Culture learns by experience.

ethbr1 3y ago

It was a pretty settled point two decades ago. https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19/green-blackboards-and-other-anomalies# https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19/green-blackboa... There was maybe a lull during the early-Facebook era, as more grandparents adopted the platform while retaining their manners and social decency. And then they too realized they could post whatever they wanted about "The {Noun}s" without consequence. And now we're here again. There's a lot to be said for talking to someone's face and having to deal with the consequences of your words directly.

datavirtue 3y ago

The gig reddits are heaped full of people trying to divine the algorithms.