4 ms·

Could you explain how Jira gets in the way of doing productive work? I genuinely don't understand where is the issue.

lmm 3y ago
You usually have to fill in a bunch of unnecessary mandatory fields before you can do anything, and by default you have to follow the workflows that have been set up by someone with more permissions than you. In particular that means that if you ever accidentally drag a card to the wrong column or something (very easy to do with the incredibly slow UI) you can't undo it and probably have to remake the ticket from scratch. Also it nudges you towards using the ticket ID rather than any actual descriptive name everywhere, so everything you do accumulates this extra layer of indirection.
- p_l 3y ago
  The workflow thing is why the usual advice with JIRA is to keep to Atlassian-supplied workflows instead of developing your own. The custom workflows are often mandated by clueless managers, and often even if you have clueful JIRA admin they will silently try to fix manager's dumb idea instead of having the manager eat the turd sandwich. Once, a coworker of mine decided that enough is enough, and decided to implement a workflow exactly as specified by management. After week or two of totally lost productivity and reporting, system-supplied workflow was returned to and the manager never again tried to play with workflows.
  - DrBazza 3y ago
    Absolutely this. Useless product managers adding custom fields and values that make zero sense. Developer issues (eg. github issues) aren't the same as helpdesk requests, and aren't the same as customer enquiries. Yet Jira happily smashes them all together.
    - vinnymac 3y ago
      The UI problems are a symptom that Jira is complex, and they push that complexity onto the user rather than offering a simple product that forces everyone to operate how they recommend you should. The freedom Jira offers managers is not for the benefit of any workplace I’ve ever been. I much prefer every single tool I’ve used that isn’t Jira for this reason.
- re-thc 3y ago
  > so everything you do accumulates this extra layer of indirection All the issues you mention aren't a problem with JIRA but your workplace (if it's an issue). There are hierarchies and processes and you don't like it. Whether JIRA or manual it'd have been the same. > You usually have to fill in a bunch of unnecessary mandatory fields before you can do anything It's configurable. It's not for you but for management. So it's not "unnecessary". > and by default you have to follow the workflows that have been set up by someone with more permissions than you and by default you have to do work set up by someone with more authority than you.
  - lmm 3y ago
    > All the issues you mention aren't a problem with JIRA but your workplace (if it's an issue). There are hierarchies and processes and you don't like it. Whether JIRA or manual it'd have been the same. And yet, as if by magic, they consistently happen at workplaces that use JIRA, and not at workplaces that don't. If it were manual, no-one would stop me submitting the form with the field not filled in where it doesn't make any sense. In the unlikely event that someone chose to make an issue of it, I'd be able to at least ask them wtf I was supposed to put in that field. > It's configurable. It's not for you but for management. So it's not "unnecessary". They are unnecessary. Management doesn't actually use them and they don't even make sense for a lot of issues, but the tool seems to nudge them towards having a bunch of mandatory fields (maybe added fields are mandatory by default or something?) > and by default you have to do work set up by someone with more authority than you. Sure, but most workplaces don't have a magic trapdoor where if you accidentally pushed the wrong elevator button then you can't come back without a manager letting you out. And they certainly don't have a 20 second lag on the elevator buttons.
    - re-thc 3y ago
      > And yet, as if by magic, they consistently happen at workplaces that use JIRA, and not at workplaces that don't. Considering that there are so many variables at play, it's a very flawed conclusion. You don't have enough data. It's not magic. You're just choosing to see it as you please. > If it were manual, no-one would stop me submitting the form with the field not filled in where it doesn't make any sense. It just works both ways. You can't have everything. Yes no 1 stops you submitting the form but you also potentially miss a lot of things. When it's discovered the context is lost or the friction is too high or they don't even know it's missing to begin with. You might as well just not submit it then. > They are unnecessary. Management doesn't actually use them and they don't even make sense for a lot of issues Well then take it out? Giving you a gun doesn't mean you need to kill someone. Responsible adults? If you buy the tool at least there should be some effort in making it work? > Sure, but most workplaces don't have a magic trapdoor where if you accidentally pushed the wrong elevator button then you can't come back without a manager letting you out. Again, you speak as though someone died because you had a gun - not because you killed them. Maybe consider that the company should be implementing a process or system and buying a tool to facilitate. They need to then set that tool up. If all they do is buy the tool and sleep that's on them. A lot of larger companies do hire dedicated specialist to configure and maintain workflows and the like. So I'm not saying JIRA is the best or anything. It's just never designed as something that works out of the box for everyone. A lot of the "enterprise" alternatives are way worse and that's what it won over. I'm sure it can do a lot better but again I don't see it as the problem in most cases. It's like if you buy a Mac and tried to use it as a PC and complained about not being able to swap the GPU then I'm not really sure it's the Mac's fault.

lmm 3y ago

You usually have to fill in a bunch of unnecessary mandatory fields before you can do anything, and by default you have to follow the workflows that have been set up by someone with more permissions than you. In particular that means that if you ever accidentally drag a card to the wrong column or something (very easy to do with the incredibly slow UI) you can't undo it and probably have to remake the ticket from scratch. Also it nudges you towards using the ticket ID rather than any actual descriptive name everywhere, so everything you do accumulates this extra layer of indirection.

p_l 3y ago
The workflow thing is why the usual advice with JIRA is to keep to Atlassian-supplied workflows instead of developing your own. The custom workflows are often mandated by clueless managers, and often even if you have clueful JIRA admin they will silently try to fix manager's dumb idea instead of having the manager eat the turd sandwich. Once, a coworker of mine decided that enough is enough, and decided to implement a workflow exactly as specified by management. After week or two of totally lost productivity and reporting, system-supplied workflow was returned to and the manager never again tried to play with workflows.
- DrBazza 3y ago
  Absolutely this. Useless product managers adding custom fields and values that make zero sense. Developer issues (eg. github issues) aren't the same as helpdesk requests, and aren't the same as customer enquiries. Yet Jira happily smashes them all together.
  - vinnymac 3y ago
    The UI problems are a symptom that Jira is complex, and they push that complexity onto the user rather than offering a simple product that forces everyone to operate how they recommend you should. The freedom Jira offers managers is not for the benefit of any workplace I’ve ever been. I much prefer every single tool I’ve used that isn’t Jira for this reason.
re-thc 3y ago
> so everything you do accumulates this extra layer of indirection All the issues you mention aren't a problem with JIRA but your workplace (if it's an issue). There are hierarchies and processes and you don't like it. Whether JIRA or manual it'd have been the same. > You usually have to fill in a bunch of unnecessary mandatory fields before you can do anything It's configurable. It's not for you but for management. So it's not "unnecessary". > and by default you have to follow the workflows that have been set up by someone with more permissions than you and by default you have to do work set up by someone with more authority than you.
- lmm 3y ago
  > All the issues you mention aren't a problem with JIRA but your workplace (if it's an issue). There are hierarchies and processes and you don't like it. Whether JIRA or manual it'd have been the same. And yet, as if by magic, they consistently happen at workplaces that use JIRA, and not at workplaces that don't. If it were manual, no-one would stop me submitting the form with the field not filled in where it doesn't make any sense. In the unlikely event that someone chose to make an issue of it, I'd be able to at least ask them wtf I was supposed to put in that field. > It's configurable. It's not for you but for management. So it's not "unnecessary". They are unnecessary. Management doesn't actually use them and they don't even make sense for a lot of issues, but the tool seems to nudge them towards having a bunch of mandatory fields (maybe added fields are mandatory by default or something?) > and by default you have to do work set up by someone with more authority than you. Sure, but most workplaces don't have a magic trapdoor where if you accidentally pushed the wrong elevator button then you can't come back without a manager letting you out. And they certainly don't have a 20 second lag on the elevator buttons.
  - re-thc 3y ago
    > And yet, as if by magic, they consistently happen at workplaces that use JIRA, and not at workplaces that don't. Considering that there are so many variables at play, it's a very flawed conclusion. You don't have enough data. It's not magic. You're just choosing to see it as you please. > If it were manual, no-one would stop me submitting the form with the field not filled in where it doesn't make any sense. It just works both ways. You can't have everything. Yes no 1 stops you submitting the form but you also potentially miss a lot of things. When it's discovered the context is lost or the friction is too high or they don't even know it's missing to begin with. You might as well just not submit it then. > They are unnecessary. Management doesn't actually use them and they don't even make sense for a lot of issues Well then take it out? Giving you a gun doesn't mean you need to kill someone. Responsible adults? If you buy the tool at least there should be some effort in making it work? > Sure, but most workplaces don't have a magic trapdoor where if you accidentally pushed the wrong elevator button then you can't come back without a manager letting you out. Again, you speak as though someone died because you had a gun - not because you killed them. Maybe consider that the company should be implementing a process or system and buying a tool to facilitate. They need to then set that tool up. If all they do is buy the tool and sleep that's on them. A lot of larger companies do hire dedicated specialist to configure and maintain workflows and the like. So I'm not saying JIRA is the best or anything. It's just never designed as something that works out of the box for everyone. A lot of the "enterprise" alternatives are way worse and that's what it won over. I'm sure it can do a lot better but again I don't see it as the problem in most cases. It's like if you buy a Mac and tried to use it as a PC and complained about not being able to swap the GPU then I'm not really sure it's the Mac's fault.