7 ms·

The real world is a lot saner, and beautiful

sph 3y ago
I am more and more convinced that the Internet is a net negative for discourse and human socialisation, and no one is really exploring this possibility. We are all trying to make the social media experiment work and I am horrified by its result. The more we tweak and add to it (upvotes, user moderators, likes, retweets, the Algorithm), the worse it gets. We're so used to the fast pace of modern science that we forget cultural evolution sometimes takes hundreds of years. What if we are 500 years before enough Internet philosophers have taught us how to behave online?
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  > I am more and more convinced that the Internet is a net negative for discourse and human socialisation, and no one is really exploring this possibility. A huge amount has been written and spoken about this.
  - sph 3y ago
    Apparently, not enough, or not forceful enough for a contingent of people to decide to quit the Internet for good. Where are the modern day anti-Internet luddites? Talking about it on a blog or, worse, posting about it on Twitter doesn't count, sorry.
    - robertlagrant 3y ago
      > Where are the modern day anti-Internet luddites? They probably don't use the Internet.
      - ethbr1 3y ago
        Exactly. You know how much I post about how I don't use Facebook on Facebook? Zero. You know how many people who don't use Facebook someone on Facebook would believe exist? Zero. If you really want to find people who don't do a thing... go find them. As a starting place, Wyoming has whole swaths of folks who don't use email.
    - nosequel 3y ago
      So that's the rub, the people who realize it is horrible actually quit on it. Lots of people talk about getting of social media, but very few actually delete all of their accounts. I've removed every social account I have around four years ago. I still have a HN account, but that's about it. I talk to my family and friends about how dangerous I think social media is to our society if the topic comes up, but frankly not many people want to hear it. If I really pressed, I'd end up being "that guy" who talks too much about any topic. I really don't think the majority of folks are going to quit social media even if every day the NYTimes, CNN, Fox News, whoever put out news stories on how horrendous it is.
      - robertlagrant 3y ago
        My compromise is I have Facebook and Twitter accounts, but not the apps, so I have to use a browser on my phone to look at them. This means I can still see content, but no notifications and the friction is high. I'd rather go on Youtube and see what people I subscribe to are making videos about.
- agubelu 3y ago
  The Internet as a infrastructure, I think it's probably a huge net positive. Social networks on the other hand, particularly Twitter and Facebook, I would agree we would be better off without them right now.
  - tremon 3y ago
    Social networks as a concept are also a huge net positive, in my view. Corporate leeches trying to monetize everything about human interaction, we're better off without. Which does include Facebook and increasingly includes Xitter.
    - sph 3y ago
      I disagree. While corporate interests make social networks worse, regular people are tend to be major asshats on any social network, a concept that was already known in the late 90s and today it is widespread, and crosses any cultural, economical and contextual reason. It is safe to say humans on the internet eventually behave like asshats. The real difference between social media and real life is that you can get punched in the face for being an asshat, and in general we have a lot of brain power dedicated to making sure we fit into our tribal group and physical context. Mind you, I did not say the Internet is an absolute negative, but in my view, the enormous benefit of instantaneous communication is negated by the impossibility of measured discourse with more than two dozen strangers.
      - fennecfoxy 3y ago
        >you can get punched in the face for being an asshat So you believe this is right, then? I think that's literally the biggest problem with our species; it all comes down to violence, in the end. Doesn't matter how much we've progressed society, women's rights, gay right's etc - apparently the rule of law is still "yeah, well, I can punch you in the face!" and so long as the puncher fits into societal norms, everyone will clap and cheer! Damn we really do just form layers upon layers of tribes, and boy do we still have a lust for tribal warfare.
- HPsquared 3y ago
  Culture learns by experience.
- ethbr1 3y ago
  It was a pretty settled point two decades ago. https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19/green-blackboards-and-other-anomalies# https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19/green-blackboa... There was maybe a lull during the early-Facebook era, as more grandparents adopted the platform while retaining their manners and social decency. And then they too realized they could post whatever they wanted about "The {Noun}s" without consequence. And now we're here again. There's a lot to be said for talking to someone's face and having to deal with the consequences of your words directly.
- datavirtue 3y ago
  The gig reddits are heaped full of people trying to divine the algorithms.
Maken 3y ago
You don't go outside too much, don't you?
- leosanchez 3y ago
  [flagged]
- spookie 3y ago
  The real world might be tragic, violent, or worse. But, inhumane conduct on the "metaverse" is much more normalized and common than in the relative considerate society I live in. I understand the bias here. It might be reason behind this comment. Nevertheless, it's real.
yafbum 3y ago
Capitol cops might disagree... This country has had a recent armed insurrection and people convicted of seditious conspiracy. Meanwhile the people who organized it see themselves as the victims of weaponized law enforcement and call for violence against law enforcement institutions such as judges, attorney generals, etc. It's not the entire real world, but you've got to admit it isn't just a Twitter bubble that's crazy polarized.
- elzbardico 3y ago
  Yeah, a bunch of poor ignorant rednecks invading the capitol was almost an armed insurrection that almost took the power in the most powerful police state of the world. Have people that believe this stupid bullshit ever thought more than a couple of seconds about it? What are those folks going to do later? Invade the pentagon? Yes, the USA has become a laughable banana republic with almost Soviet amounts of propaganda. But insurrections don’t work like that. Can’t you fucking see the propaganda?
  - ses1984 3y ago
    Just because the insurrection could have been crushed at any moment doesn’t change what it was.
  - macintux 3y ago
    Had they destroyed the ballots, had they killed Pence, we would have been in uncharted legal and constitutional territory. It wasn’t the insurgents who would have taken control of the government. It was the man driving them to destruction who would have taken advantage of the chaos to stay in power.
  - Capricorn2481 3y ago
    Yeah we would've just replaced all the dead senators with football players and been fine
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    >But insurrections don’t work like that The capitol riot thing was a stalling tactic. The ones trying to take over the government were NOT the people pooping on Nancy Pelosi's desk. We have their notes, talking about how they we submitting false electors. We know Pence called up a friend to ask whether he could come up with a legal theory to justify the process. He only didn't go through with it because he thought the plotters would kill him. A significant portion of the Republican party STILL voted to not confirm Biden as president after it happened.
elzbardico 3y ago
Our bubbles are like that. The real world is a real damn mess.
- spookie 3y ago
  I'd wager it's still better than the cyber world

sph 3y ago

I am more and more convinced that the Internet is a net negative for discourse and human socialisation, and no one is really exploring this possibility. We are all trying to make the social media experiment work and I am horrified by its result. The more we tweak and add to it (upvotes, user moderators, likes, retweets, the Algorithm), the worse it gets. We're so used to the fast pace of modern science that we forget cultural evolution sometimes takes hundreds of years. What if we are 500 years before enough Internet philosophers have taught us how to behave online?

robertlagrant 3y ago
> I am more and more convinced that the Internet is a net negative for discourse and human socialisation, and no one is really exploring this possibility. A huge amount has been written and spoken about this.
- sph 3y ago
  Apparently, not enough, or not forceful enough for a contingent of people to decide to quit the Internet for good. Where are the modern day anti-Internet luddites? Talking about it on a blog or, worse, posting about it on Twitter doesn't count, sorry.
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    > Where are the modern day anti-Internet luddites? They probably don't use the Internet.
    - ethbr1 3y ago
      Exactly. You know how much I post about how I don't use Facebook on Facebook? Zero. You know how many people who don't use Facebook someone on Facebook would believe exist? Zero. If you really want to find people who don't do a thing... go find them. As a starting place, Wyoming has whole swaths of folks who don't use email.
  - nosequel 3y ago
    So that's the rub, the people who realize it is horrible actually quit on it. Lots of people talk about getting of social media, but very few actually delete all of their accounts. I've removed every social account I have around four years ago. I still have a HN account, but that's about it. I talk to my family and friends about how dangerous I think social media is to our society if the topic comes up, but frankly not many people want to hear it. If I really pressed, I'd end up being "that guy" who talks too much about any topic. I really don't think the majority of folks are going to quit social media even if every day the NYTimes, CNN, Fox News, whoever put out news stories on how horrendous it is.
    - robertlagrant 3y ago
      My compromise is I have Facebook and Twitter accounts, but not the apps, so I have to use a browser on my phone to look at them. This means I can still see content, but no notifications and the friction is high. I'd rather go on Youtube and see what people I subscribe to are making videos about.
agubelu 3y ago
The Internet as a infrastructure, I think it's probably a huge net positive. Social networks on the other hand, particularly Twitter and Facebook, I would agree we would be better off without them right now.
- tremon 3y ago
  Social networks as a concept are also a huge net positive, in my view. Corporate leeches trying to monetize everything about human interaction, we're better off without. Which does include Facebook and increasingly includes Xitter.
  - sph 3y ago
    I disagree. While corporate interests make social networks worse, regular people are tend to be major asshats on any social network, a concept that was already known in the late 90s and today it is widespread, and crosses any cultural, economical and contextual reason. It is safe to say humans on the internet eventually behave like asshats. The real difference between social media and real life is that you can get punched in the face for being an asshat, and in general we have a lot of brain power dedicated to making sure we fit into our tribal group and physical context. Mind you, I did not say the Internet is an absolute negative, but in my view, the enormous benefit of instantaneous communication is negated by the impossibility of measured discourse with more than two dozen strangers.
    - fennecfoxy 3y ago
      >you can get punched in the face for being an asshat So you believe this is right, then? I think that's literally the biggest problem with our species; it all comes down to violence, in the end. Doesn't matter how much we've progressed society, women's rights, gay right's etc - apparently the rule of law is still "yeah, well, I can punch you in the face!" and so long as the puncher fits into societal norms, everyone will clap and cheer! Damn we really do just form layers upon layers of tribes, and boy do we still have a lust for tribal warfare.
HPsquared 3y ago
Culture learns by experience.
ethbr1 3y ago
It was a pretty settled point two decades ago. https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19/green-blackboards-and-other-anomalies# https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19/green-blackboa... There was maybe a lull during the early-Facebook era, as more grandparents adopted the platform while retaining their manners and social decency. And then they too realized they could post whatever they wanted about "The {Noun}s" without consequence. And now we're here again. There's a lot to be said for talking to someone's face and having to deal with the consequences of your words directly.
datavirtue 3y ago
The gig reddits are heaped full of people trying to divine the algorithms.

Maken 3y ago

You don't go outside too much, don't you?

leosanchez 3y ago
[flagged]
spookie 3y ago
The real world might be tragic, violent, or worse. But, inhumane conduct on the "metaverse" is much more normalized and common than in the relative considerate society I live in. I understand the bias here. It might be reason behind this comment. Nevertheless, it's real.

yafbum 3y ago

Capitol cops might disagree... This country has had a recent armed insurrection and people convicted of seditious conspiracy. Meanwhile the people who organized it see themselves as the victims of weaponized law enforcement and call for violence against law enforcement institutions such as judges, attorney generals, etc. It's not the entire real world, but you've got to admit it isn't just a Twitter bubble that's crazy polarized.

elzbardico 3y ago
Yeah, a bunch of poor ignorant rednecks invading the capitol was almost an armed insurrection that almost took the power in the most powerful police state of the world. Have people that believe this stupid bullshit ever thought more than a couple of seconds about it? What are those folks going to do later? Invade the pentagon? Yes, the USA has become a laughable banana republic with almost Soviet amounts of propaganda. But insurrections don’t work like that. Can’t you fucking see the propaganda?
- ses1984 3y ago
  Just because the insurrection could have been crushed at any moment doesn’t change what it was.
- macintux 3y ago
  Had they destroyed the ballots, had they killed Pence, we would have been in uncharted legal and constitutional territory. It wasn’t the insurgents who would have taken control of the government. It was the man driving them to destruction who would have taken advantage of the chaos to stay in power.
- Capricorn2481 3y ago
  Yeah we would've just replaced all the dead senators with football players and been fine
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  >But insurrections don’t work like that The capitol riot thing was a stalling tactic. The ones trying to take over the government were NOT the people pooping on Nancy Pelosi's desk. We have their notes, talking about how they we submitting false electors. We know Pence called up a friend to ask whether he could come up with a legal theory to justify the process. He only didn't go through with it because he thought the plotters would kill him. A significant portion of the Republican party STILL voted to not confirm Biden as president after it happened.

elzbardico 3y ago

Our bubbles are like that. The real world is a real damn mess.

spookie 3y ago
I'd wager it's still better than the cyber world