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Pretty good combined life+career advice I heard a long time ago and followed: If you're going to move countries, the best time to do it is right after college.

Pretty good combined life+career advice I heard a long time ago and followed: If you're going to move countries, the best time to do it is right after college. Starting from scratch in an entirely new country, with no connections, no professional ability to speak the native language, and rapidly dwindling cash reserves, was one of the scariest and most thrilling things I've ever done in my life. I recommend it to no one, because if you're crazy or motivated enough to actually do it, no man's recommendation for or against it is going to stop you. You will become some kind of minor force of nature for a while and you will look back on that time years later and think "I had no idea I could be that hardcore." Sadly this is necessarily the opposite of most of Moxie's sentiments. "Throw yourself into the toughest situations you can find" is shared between us, but Moxie recs doing so amidst friends and comrades, while I merely remind you can hurl yourself into the ravine to learn to fly.

jezzamon 3y ago
Having done it myself, I would recommend it! Though I suppose it speaks to my personality type that I didn't find moving country and leaving everything that scary. I was moving to a job, so didn't have the dwindling cash reserves part.
CalRobert 3y ago
I did it myself, and right after college. It worked out OK, and I know now that making friends in your 20's is 10 times easier in your 30's, and in your 30's is ten times easier than in your 40's (though if you have kids in school that can help a little as you meet other kids' parents) But why not do it _in_ college?
- hiAndrewQuinn 3y ago
  It's pretty hard to move between countries when you're in college. The credit transfer situation is pretty tough. People do it, though. That's why most of the foreign students at any given college beat the pants off of the locals. I speak from experience :D
  - j7ake 3y ago
    One can do an foreign exchange year during university…
    - em-bee 3y ago
      or summer internships. check out IAESTE and AIESEC and a few related organizations
  - red-iron-pine 3y ago
    lotta universities love to charge foreign students more, tho that's mostly 1st world; if you can speak Arabic you can get some good deals on schooling.
FlyingSnake 3y ago
I did that (twice!) and honestly it was the riskiest and most rewarding experiences of my life.
Swizec 3y ago
I moved countries soon after college with not even a job lined up. From Slovenia straight into SFBA because if you're gonna do something that hard, you might as well go all the way. To anyone asking if they should do the same, I say: Don't do it. Because if you have to ask, the answer is no. The ones who succeed don't ask for permission, they ask for tips about how to get it done. The mind is already made up. Same is true for starting a business. "Should I start a business/move countries/other high variance thing?" --> no. "How do I overcome <obstacle they identified>?" --> advice time! edit: For the downvoters -> this was, for me, the best thing I've ever done. But you really do need a lot of internal resolve to make it work. To give you an example of an unexpected difficulty: I used to practice facial expressions in the mirror because Americans had trouble reading my emotes. Like practicing your accent away, but for your face.
- cpach 3y ago
  How did you manage to get a work permit?
  - Swizec 3y ago
    Here's the story with links to previous steps: https://swizec.com/blog/how-i-used-indie-hacking-to-sponsor-my-own-greencard/ https://swizec.com/blog/how-i-used-indie-hacking-to-sponsor-...
    - cpach 3y ago
      Wow. I’m impressed. Well done!
- hiAndrewQuinn 3y ago
  Exactly right. It's not even close to, say, becoming a US Marine, but they're both crazy enough moves that you can't just reason yourself into them. You have to be steeled. Godspeed, and I hope Slovenia continues its upward trajectory as well.
- moffkalast 3y ago
  As a fellow Slovenian who's also worked with Americans, the last part is both hilarious and real. It's just such a weirdly large cultural difference in general behaviour that's hard to explain. I would personally find it near impossible to adapt to that always-fake-cheerful attitude that's common on the west coast.
ImPleadThe5th 3y ago
I'm currently doing it right now (living abroad, working for a startup). I worked back home for a year and a half after college,but once covid cleared up I immediately started applying abroad. Its a great opportunity because not only can one still develop their career, they get to deep dive a new culture and every day feels like a vacation! For me, I actually think it was not too hard (I think it greatly depends on where you move, your appetite for challenge and how much traveling you've done before). The process was confusing and long, but nothing a couple of trips to a consulate and a lot of reading couldn't help with. I was lucky enough to have some friends that live in the country I moved to (albeit quite far away). I felt the hardest part was the first 3 months, it was lonely and some days I was bedridden with homesickness. But then the magic happens. You meet new people, you find your footing, you make lifelong memories. After that life just feels like normal life but turbo charged by all the new experiences. The new hard part is deciding if I want to come back or not, I'm having the time of my life out here!
bjornsing 3y ago
> If you're going to move countries, the best time to do it is right after college. Perhaps this should be reconsidered in light of remote work? I’m 45 and thinking about moving to another country, mostly for lower cost of living and lower taxes (I’m Swedish). I’m basically a remote freelancer, so the step doesn’t feel huge.
- em-bee 3y ago
  don't do it to save money, because you unlikely will. lower cost of living is associated with a lower quality of life. things are cheaper in other places because they have less quality. what you save on some things, you end up spending on others. before you move somewhere, make sure you like it there regardless of the cost or quality of life, because if you don't you will end up spending more on things to compensate for what you are missing.
  - ponector 3y ago
    That is not always true. Cost of living in Houston is lower than in LA. Is life worse there? Is quality lower?
    - em-bee 3y ago
      i can't judge that for myself as i have not been to houston yet but i remember seeing articles about people moving from california to austin and being disappointed. if houston is anywhere similar to austin then that should prove the point. it really depends on what you consider quality of living. to me that includes access to interesting activities, people etc. if i don't get that, i will do something else to compensate. in houston that could mean more travelling. so the money you save on the house you then spend on airplane tickets or on gas for your car. not everyone is going to be the same. it could be that you absolutely love living in houston, spend all your time hanging out at the space center, or some other local activity that is not expensive and really do save money. but what i said actually applies more for living in a different country, because i assure you, at a minimum you will miss food from home and spend money on imported food or going to restaurants.

jezzamon 3y ago

Having done it myself, I would recommend it! Though I suppose it speaks to my personality type that I didn't find moving country and leaving everything that scary. I was moving to a job, so didn't have the dwindling cash reserves part.

CalRobert 3y ago

I did it myself, and right after college. It worked out OK, and I know now that making friends in your 20's is 10 times easier in your 30's, and in your 30's is ten times easier than in your 40's (though if you have kids in school that can help a little as you meet other kids' parents) But why not do it _in_ college?

hiAndrewQuinn 3y ago
It's pretty hard to move between countries when you're in college. The credit transfer situation is pretty tough. People do it, though. That's why most of the foreign students at any given college beat the pants off of the locals. I speak from experience :D
- j7ake 3y ago
  One can do an foreign exchange year during university…
  - em-bee 3y ago
    or summer internships. check out IAESTE and AIESEC and a few related organizations
- red-iron-pine 3y ago
  lotta universities love to charge foreign students more, tho that's mostly 1st world; if you can speak Arabic you can get some good deals on schooling.

FlyingSnake 3y ago

I did that (twice!) and honestly it was the riskiest and most rewarding experiences of my life.

Swizec 3y ago

I moved countries soon after college with not even a job lined up. From Slovenia straight into SFBA because if you're gonna do something that hard, you might as well go all the way. To anyone asking if they should do the same, I say: Don't do it. Because if you have to ask, the answer is no. The ones who succeed don't ask for permission, they ask for tips about how to get it done. The mind is already made up. Same is true for starting a business. "Should I start a business/move countries/other high variance thing?" --> no. "How do I overcome <obstacle they identified>?" --> advice time! edit: For the downvoters -> this was, for me, the best thing I've ever done. But you really do need a lot of internal resolve to make it work. To give you an example of an unexpected difficulty: I used to practice facial expressions in the mirror because Americans had trouble reading my emotes. Like practicing your accent away, but for your face.

cpach 3y ago
How did you manage to get a work permit?
- Swizec 3y ago
  Here's the story with links to previous steps: https://swizec.com/blog/how-i-used-indie-hacking-to-sponsor-my-own-greencard/ https://swizec.com/blog/how-i-used-indie-hacking-to-sponsor-...
  - cpach 3y ago
    Wow. I’m impressed. Well done!
hiAndrewQuinn 3y ago
Exactly right. It's not even close to, say, becoming a US Marine, but they're both crazy enough moves that you can't just reason yourself into them. You have to be steeled. Godspeed, and I hope Slovenia continues its upward trajectory as well.
moffkalast 3y ago
As a fellow Slovenian who's also worked with Americans, the last part is both hilarious and real. It's just such a weirdly large cultural difference in general behaviour that's hard to explain. I would personally find it near impossible to adapt to that always-fake-cheerful attitude that's common on the west coast.

ImPleadThe5th 3y ago

I'm currently doing it right now (living abroad, working for a startup). I worked back home for a year and a half after college,but once covid cleared up I immediately started applying abroad. Its a great opportunity because not only can one still develop their career, they get to deep dive a new culture and every day feels like a vacation! For me, I actually think it was not too hard (I think it greatly depends on where you move, your appetite for challenge and how much traveling you've done before). The process was confusing and long, but nothing a couple of trips to a consulate and a lot of reading couldn't help with. I was lucky enough to have some friends that live in the country I moved to (albeit quite far away). I felt the hardest part was the first 3 months, it was lonely and some days I was bedridden with homesickness. But then the magic happens. You meet new people, you find your footing, you make lifelong memories. After that life just feels like normal life but turbo charged by all the new experiences. The new hard part is deciding if I want to come back or not, I'm having the time of my life out here!

bjornsing 3y ago

> If you're going to move countries, the best time to do it is right after college. Perhaps this should be reconsidered in light of remote work? I’m 45 and thinking about moving to another country, mostly for lower cost of living and lower taxes (I’m Swedish). I’m basically a remote freelancer, so the step doesn’t feel huge.

em-bee 3y ago
don't do it to save money, because you unlikely will. lower cost of living is associated with a lower quality of life. things are cheaper in other places because they have less quality. what you save on some things, you end up spending on others. before you move somewhere, make sure you like it there regardless of the cost or quality of life, because if you don't you will end up spending more on things to compensate for what you are missing.
- ponector 3y ago
  That is not always true. Cost of living in Houston is lower than in LA. Is life worse there? Is quality lower?
  - em-bee 3y ago
    i can't judge that for myself as i have not been to houston yet but i remember seeing articles about people moving from california to austin and being disappointed. if houston is anywhere similar to austin then that should prove the point. it really depends on what you consider quality of living. to me that includes access to interesting activities, people etc. if i don't get that, i will do something else to compensate. in houston that could mean more travelling. so the money you save on the house you then spend on airplane tickets or on gas for your car. not everyone is going to be the same. it could be that you absolutely love living in houston, spend all your time hanging out at the space center, or some other local activity that is not expensive and really do save money. but what i said actually applies more for living in a different country, because i assure you, at a minimum you will miss food from home and spend money on imported food or going to restaurants.