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No. I don't think they're going to buy a niche phone. I'm advocating for repair-ability in general. All of my comments have been in response to the original com

No. I don't think they're going to buy a niche phone. I'm advocating for repair-ability in general. All of my comments have been in response to the original comment I replied to, which was about AppleCare and iPhones. Also, as for poor folks. Many of them buy iPhones. They do this because appearing poor with a cheap phone from Walmart hampers your career trajectory. These folks are essentially "faking it til you make it". This isn't even wrong, it's just a fact of the way society perceives people. Unfortunately, folks look down on you if you don't own a Samsung or iPhone and wonder why you have a budget flip phone. These very people are those who would benefit from affordable phone repair. They can easily replace a battery or a screen without paying another $1000+ for an iPhone. This helps them keep up appearances while saving money. I know many, many folks like this. It's important we fight for these repair options to help all of us out.

kube-system 3y ago
Yes, there is no denying that self-service repair would help the people who are willing and able to do so. However, I'm just saying that market is not incentivized to do so. The BOM cost would be too high and the volume too low for it to be a cheap phone to begin with, so the affordability angle is a non-starter. Cheap high-volume glued-together phones will always be cheaper. If people really can't afford a screen replacement at a repair shop, the market will sell them a <=$50 phone. If people really don't want to buy a $50 phone and want to spend more for an iPhone, they have demonstrated that they are willing to make the sacrifice to do so. If people want an iPhone, then the Fairphone is not a solution to that problem either.
- AnthonyMouse 3y ago
  If people can't be seen with a cheap phone, a $730 Fairphone will satisfy the "people can see you paid a premium for this" bar, but then if a piece of it breaks the cost is $105 instead of another $730.
  - kube-system 3y ago
    > a $730 Fairphone will satisfy the "people can see you paid a premium for this" bar Does it? I don't think most people have even heard of it.
    - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
      It looks like it's made of quality materials (because it is), if anyone looks it up they can see that it isn't a cheap device, if anyone asks you about it you can earn status points by telling them how much you care about the environment etc.
      - kube-system 3y ago
        I'm honestly not intending this to sound snarky, but this sounds like something someone with a green bubble would say. If those things matter to a person's audience, they weren't the iPhone crowd anyway.
        AnthonyMouse 3y ago
        That's not snark, it's pomp. And it's the exact reason that people keep wanting Apple to make a repairable phone. Someone else can do it, and do a fine job, and you say "green bubbles" and turn up your nose. Well then, where's the repairable phone with blue bubbles, pray tell? You're dangerously close to an admission that "the iPhone crowd" wants the logo as a status symbol and excluding underprivileged aspirants by increasing the cost of entry is the point.
        kube-system 3y ago
        > you say "green bubbles" and turn up your nose. I'm not doing it, I'm saying that the crowd that cares about iPhone brand image, cares about iPhone brand image. > You're dangerously close to an admission that "the iPhone crowd" wants the logo as a status symbol and excluding underprivileged aspirants by increasing the cost of entry is the point. I don't know why you think I would pretend otherwise. Apple's brand image is as a premium product, and Apple has been openly hostile to unauthorized repair for the stated reason that many aftermarket parts are of lower quality than OEM parts. Apple obviously doesn't want low quality refurbs floating around and diluting their brand image. e.g.: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210323 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210323
- softfalcon 3y ago
  > Cheap high-volume glued-together phones will always be cheaper. I appreciate your cost focused perspective on this. I really do. What I'm trying to argue is that it is necessary to stop doing this. I foresee that just like the EU forcing USB-C into the iPhone, we could also see more repair-ability to combat climate issues, e-waste, etc. The world is going to have a hard pill to swallow, not everything is about profits. Sometimes things need to be done because they are good for us and our society. > If people want an iPhone, then the Fairphone is not a solution to that problem either. I don't think the Fairphone is necessarily the solution either. That was never what I was arguing about. I'd appreciate it if you'd stop bringing it up. I'm not talking about the Fairphone. I'm explicitly talking about why an iPhone user might care about repair-ability.
  - kube-system 3y ago
    Cost is a good proxy for resources expended. How many devices exactly are thrown away due to damage vs being EOL'd for other reasons, like vanity, or other obsolescence? Repairability does not equal infinite product lifetime, however it does increase material on the BOM and increase the energy required to manufacture the device. Are you sure that those additional increases in material and energy would be offset by a longer observed lifetime of the device? I mean, I'm not against repairability laws as a matter of consumer protection, but I think it's pure conjecture to jump to the conclusion that it is undoubtably better for the environment. If you add 10% of material to the average device to gain 5% average lifetime, you're not decreasing waste. I don't think it would add any lifetime personally, as repair and refurbishment shops already know how to open phones that are glued together and there is a huge industry that refurbs these phones already. I doubt screws will increase the average lifetime of the average phone, it'll just increase the number of screws in the landfill.
    - nuancebydefault 3y ago
      The thing is, cheap phones are more expensive in the longer term. Legislation should set a minimum on quality, repairability helps on setting quality standards. This goes for many appliances as well as phones. I'd rather have iron screws in landfills than extra glue.

kube-system 3y ago

Yes, there is no denying that self-service repair would help the people who are willing and able to do so. However, I'm just saying that market is not incentivized to do so. The BOM cost would be too high and the volume too low for it to be a cheap phone to begin with, so the affordability angle is a non-starter. Cheap high-volume glued-together phones will always be cheaper. If people really can't afford a screen replacement at a repair shop, the market will sell them a <=$50 phone. If people really don't want to buy a $50 phone and want to spend more for an iPhone, they have demonstrated that they are willing to make the sacrifice to do so. If people want an iPhone, then the Fairphone is not a solution to that problem either.

AnthonyMouse 3y ago
If people can't be seen with a cheap phone, a $730 Fairphone will satisfy the "people can see you paid a premium for this" bar, but then if a piece of it breaks the cost is $105 instead of another $730.
- kube-system 3y ago
  > a $730 Fairphone will satisfy the "people can see you paid a premium for this" bar Does it? I don't think most people have even heard of it.
  - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
    It looks like it's made of quality materials (because it is), if anyone looks it up they can see that it isn't a cheap device, if anyone asks you about it you can earn status points by telling them how much you care about the environment etc.
    - kube-system 3y ago
      I'm honestly not intending this to sound snarky, but this sounds like something someone with a green bubble would say. If those things matter to a person's audience, they weren't the iPhone crowd anyway.
      - AnthonyMouse 3y ago
        That's not snark, it's pomp. And it's the exact reason that people keep wanting Apple to make a repairable phone. Someone else can do it, and do a fine job, and you say "green bubbles" and turn up your nose. Well then, where's the repairable phone with blue bubbles, pray tell? You're dangerously close to an admission that "the iPhone crowd" wants the logo as a status symbol and excluding underprivileged aspirants by increasing the cost of entry is the point.
        kube-system 3y ago
        > you say "green bubbles" and turn up your nose. I'm not doing it, I'm saying that the crowd that cares about iPhone brand image, cares about iPhone brand image. > You're dangerously close to an admission that "the iPhone crowd" wants the logo as a status symbol and excluding underprivileged aspirants by increasing the cost of entry is the point. I don't know why you think I would pretend otherwise. Apple's brand image is as a premium product, and Apple has been openly hostile to unauthorized repair for the stated reason that many aftermarket parts are of lower quality than OEM parts. Apple obviously doesn't want low quality refurbs floating around and diluting their brand image. e.g.: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210323 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210323
softfalcon 3y ago
> Cheap high-volume glued-together phones will always be cheaper. I appreciate your cost focused perspective on this. I really do. What I'm trying to argue is that it is necessary to stop doing this. I foresee that just like the EU forcing USB-C into the iPhone, we could also see more repair-ability to combat climate issues, e-waste, etc. The world is going to have a hard pill to swallow, not everything is about profits. Sometimes things need to be done because they are good for us and our society. > If people want an iPhone, then the Fairphone is not a solution to that problem either. I don't think the Fairphone is necessarily the solution either. That was never what I was arguing about. I'd appreciate it if you'd stop bringing it up. I'm not talking about the Fairphone. I'm explicitly talking about why an iPhone user might care about repair-ability.
- kube-system 3y ago
  Cost is a good proxy for resources expended. How many devices exactly are thrown away due to damage vs being EOL'd for other reasons, like vanity, or other obsolescence? Repairability does not equal infinite product lifetime, however it does increase material on the BOM and increase the energy required to manufacture the device. Are you sure that those additional increases in material and energy would be offset by a longer observed lifetime of the device? I mean, I'm not against repairability laws as a matter of consumer protection, but I think it's pure conjecture to jump to the conclusion that it is undoubtably better for the environment. If you add 10% of material to the average device to gain 5% average lifetime, you're not decreasing waste. I don't think it would add any lifetime personally, as repair and refurbishment shops already know how to open phones that are glued together and there is a huge industry that refurbs these phones already. I doubt screws will increase the average lifetime of the average phone, it'll just increase the number of screws in the landfill.
  - nuancebydefault 3y ago
    The thing is, cheap phones are more expensive in the longer term. Legislation should set a minimum on quality, repairability helps on setting quality standards. This goes for many appliances as well as phones. I'd rather have iron screws in landfills than extra glue.