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> I want EVs to succeed but they simply don’t make sense for all use cases yet. I think they do? There's a couple really small corner cases, like if you're on

> I want EVs to succeed but they simply don’t make sense for all use cases yet. I think they do? There's a couple really small corner cases, like if you're on the road 99% of the time for work, or live in sub-zero temperatures all year long, or something exceptional like that. But EVs are already there right now for everything non-exceptional people use cars for. The things people think EVs can't do are the kinds of things people think they need to be able to do, but don't actually ever do, like go on 400 mile road trips every week with zero stops. YAGNI. I really like Mazda, too. They make good stuff, and their recent "anti-touchscreen" stance really jives with me[1]. [1] https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1121372_why-mazda-is-purging-touchscreens-from-its-vehicles https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1121372_why-mazda-is-pur...

hatsunearu 3y ago
As someone that wants to go on ski trips, it's the exact nightmare scenario for EVs. In nominal conditions it's a long, cold trip with lots of people inside, lots of shit in the trunk, and potentially stuff on the roof harming aero greatly, while also being cold and driving through mountains with potentially limited fast charging. Oh and god forbid the road gets shut down and you need to stay in the car for a few hours as they drag out someone from the ditch!
- andix 3y ago
  What’s the difference for being stuck in the cold in an EV to an ICE car? The time you can keep the heating running is very similar (around 1,5 days with a full tank of gas or a full battery). The only benefit of the combustion engine is that you can keep some extra fuel in the trunk. But who has 50l extra fuel in their trunk?
  - smogcutter 3y ago
    Setting aside the cold, being stuck in general is easier to recover from in an ICE car. It’s very easy for AAA, emergency services, etc, to bring you a container of gasoline at the side of the road. I honestly don’t know, what’s the solution for EVs? Will AAA bring a generator? Can they charge you off the engine of the tow truck?
    - andix 3y ago
      Yes, you can charge an EV from a generator, there are already devices for that on some service trucks. There is another option (although not recommended by any manufacturer): If the EV still goes into drive mode, just tow it for a short distance and use regenerative breaking. You should be able to gain 2-5 times the towed distance as range. Edit: this technique is not recommended, although it seems to work. It’s very important that the car still turns on and you can select D. Otherwise the car may get severely damaged. If the car is off, it should not be towed more than about 5 time its length. When you tow it, there is a lot of electricity generated in the engines, even if it’s off. (There are exceptions from this rules though).
andix 3y ago
Really cold temperatures are also a problem for combustion engines. Try to start one at -30 C or lower.
- argiopetech 3y ago
  True, but oil pan heaters are a thing. Is there an electric vehicle equivalent?
  - coldpie 3y ago
    It's not needed for EVs, they just work, though with faster drain and slower charging speeds (though battery heaters/conditioners help mitigate this). Batteries wear out more quickly from long-term cold exposure, which is why I said "year round subzero temps". For typical American winters, even up here in Minnesota, it's not a significant issue.
    - andix 3y ago
      Now I get it, you're talking about subzero fahrenheit temperatures. So sub -17,7 temperature in normal people's units ;) Because subzero celsius temperatures are not an issue. Scandinavia and Finland have a lot of EVs, and also big distances to drive. Doesn't seem to be a big issue.
jasonpeacock 3y ago
Some would argue this is not a use case...but my use case is that I don't want to buy a new car every 5yrs (or pay a fortune to replace the batteries). I have a 2005 Honda that's still running great, I plan to keep driving it a long time. I just got a 2021 Honda (ICE) as the family car, I expect to keep driving that one just as long. I want to see longevity in EVs before I make the switch. Or they need to be significantly less expensive.
- coldpie 3y ago
  Depending on your locale, EV batteries last about 8-15 years[1], not five. EVs are cheaper to maintain and run than ICEs[2]. I think right now, it's a toss-up which will come out cheaper after 20 years when including a battery replacement. But EV components will only go down in price as we massively scale up manufacturing, so I expect EVs will be the clear price winner within the next 5-10 years, which is about when you'd maybe start thinking about replacing the battery if you purchased an EV today. [1] https://www.edmunds.com/electric-car/articles/electric-car-battery-replacement-costs.html https://www.edmunds.com/electric-car/articles/electric-car-b... [2] EV maintenance costs are about 60% of ICE https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/articles/fotw-1190-june-14-2021-battery-electric-vehicles-have-lower-scheduled https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/articles/fotw-1190-june... and fueling costs are about 50% of ICE https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32494027/ev-vs-gas-cheaper-to-own/ https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32494027/ev-vs...
yowzadave 3y ago
I live in an apartment, and none of the parking lots near us have charging spaces…so unfortunately we’re stuck with gas cars until that situation changes.
- coldpie 3y ago
  Good point! Don't have a great story there right now today, unfortunately. I think the goal will be for most shopping and workplace parking lots to have chargers, so you can charge up while you're out doing other stuff. I've also seen newly built apartment parking lots in my city (Minneapolis/St Paul) often contain a handful of charging spots. We're definitely not there today, but a bunch of money is going into building out the charging networks right now[1], so hopefully that changes very soon. [1] https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/02/heres-how-the-government-plans-to-make-ev-chargers-common-and-reliable/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/02/heres-how-the-governmen...
- andix 3y ago
  Also no places where you regularly go? In Central Europe a lot of supermarkets and malls already have DC charging (sometimes AC charging too). So during a regular (20-30 min) visit at the supermarket you can easily charge the battery up to 80%. Where I live every town with more than ~1000 inhabitants got at least one AC charging spot operated by the local electricity provider. Charging there may be cumbersome though, because you may need to walk back 5-10 minutes to your apartment and pick up the car a few hours later.

hatsunearu 3y ago

As someone that wants to go on ski trips, it's the exact nightmare scenario for EVs. In nominal conditions it's a long, cold trip with lots of people inside, lots of shit in the trunk, and potentially stuff on the roof harming aero greatly, while also being cold and driving through mountains with potentially limited fast charging. Oh and god forbid the road gets shut down and you need to stay in the car for a few hours as they drag out someone from the ditch!

andix 3y ago
What’s the difference for being stuck in the cold in an EV to an ICE car? The time you can keep the heating running is very similar (around 1,5 days with a full tank of gas or a full battery). The only benefit of the combustion engine is that you can keep some extra fuel in the trunk. But who has 50l extra fuel in their trunk?
- smogcutter 3y ago
  Setting aside the cold, being stuck in general is easier to recover from in an ICE car. It’s very easy for AAA, emergency services, etc, to bring you a container of gasoline at the side of the road. I honestly don’t know, what’s the solution for EVs? Will AAA bring a generator? Can they charge you off the engine of the tow truck?
  - andix 3y ago
    Yes, you can charge an EV from a generator, there are already devices for that on some service trucks. There is another option (although not recommended by any manufacturer): If the EV still goes into drive mode, just tow it for a short distance and use regenerative breaking. You should be able to gain 2-5 times the towed distance as range. Edit: this technique is not recommended, although it seems to work. It’s very important that the car still turns on and you can select D. Otherwise the car may get severely damaged. If the car is off, it should not be towed more than about 5 time its length. When you tow it, there is a lot of electricity generated in the engines, even if it’s off. (There are exceptions from this rules though).

andix 3y ago

Really cold temperatures are also a problem for combustion engines. Try to start one at -30 C or lower.

argiopetech 3y ago
True, but oil pan heaters are a thing. Is there an electric vehicle equivalent?
- coldpie 3y ago
  It's not needed for EVs, they just work, though with faster drain and slower charging speeds (though battery heaters/conditioners help mitigate this). Batteries wear out more quickly from long-term cold exposure, which is why I said "year round subzero temps". For typical American winters, even up here in Minnesota, it's not a significant issue.
  - andix 3y ago
    Now I get it, you're talking about subzero fahrenheit temperatures. So sub -17,7 temperature in normal people's units ;) Because subzero celsius temperatures are not an issue. Scandinavia and Finland have a lot of EVs, and also big distances to drive. Doesn't seem to be a big issue.

jasonpeacock 3y ago

Some would argue this is not a use case...but my use case is that I don't want to buy a new car every 5yrs (or pay a fortune to replace the batteries). I have a 2005 Honda that's still running great, I plan to keep driving it a long time. I just got a 2021 Honda (ICE) as the family car, I expect to keep driving that one just as long. I want to see longevity in EVs before I make the switch. Or they need to be significantly less expensive.

coldpie 3y ago
Depending on your locale, EV batteries last about 8-15 years[1], not five. EVs are cheaper to maintain and run than ICEs[2]. I think right now, it's a toss-up which will come out cheaper after 20 years when including a battery replacement. But EV components will only go down in price as we massively scale up manufacturing, so I expect EVs will be the clear price winner within the next 5-10 years, which is about when you'd maybe start thinking about replacing the battery if you purchased an EV today. [1] https://www.edmunds.com/electric-car/articles/electric-car-battery-replacement-costs.html https://www.edmunds.com/electric-car/articles/electric-car-b... [2] EV maintenance costs are about 60% of ICE https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/articles/fotw-1190-june-14-2021-battery-electric-vehicles-have-lower-scheduled https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/articles/fotw-1190-june... and fueling costs are about 50% of ICE https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32494027/ev-vs-gas-cheaper-to-own/ https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32494027/ev-vs...

yowzadave 3y ago

I live in an apartment, and none of the parking lots near us have charging spaces…so unfortunately we’re stuck with gas cars until that situation changes.

coldpie 3y ago
Good point! Don't have a great story there right now today, unfortunately. I think the goal will be for most shopping and workplace parking lots to have chargers, so you can charge up while you're out doing other stuff. I've also seen newly built apartment parking lots in my city (Minneapolis/St Paul) often contain a handful of charging spots. We're definitely not there today, but a bunch of money is going into building out the charging networks right now[1], so hopefully that changes very soon. [1] https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/02/heres-how-the-government-plans-to-make-ev-chargers-common-and-reliable/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/02/heres-how-the-governmen...
andix 3y ago
Also no places where you regularly go? In Central Europe a lot of supermarkets and malls already have DC charging (sometimes AC charging too). So during a regular (20-30 min) visit at the supermarket you can easily charge the battery up to 80%. Where I live every town with more than ~1000 inhabitants got at least one AC charging spot operated by the local electricity provider. Charging there may be cumbersome though, because you may need to walk back 5-10 minutes to your apartment and pick up the car a few hours later.