3 ms·

Perhaps for J2ME development, but apart from that I'd say thousands of companies have individually decided to use Java. Apple is just one company that has decid

by Tichy 15y ago

Perhaps for J2ME development, but apart from that I'd say thousands of companies have individually decided to use Java. Apple is just one company that has decided to use Objective-C. Edit: I forgot about Android, but Java was "popular" before that - in fact Android probably uses Java because Java was popular...

davidw 15y ago
> individually decided Languages aren't used in a vacuum, and the economics of them involve positive network externalities and switching costs, so 'individually' needs some qualification.
- Tichy 15y ago
  What kind of thing do you mean? I was (to my utter dismay) a Java developer for more than 10 years. Most of the time I worked on business internal projects or J2ME. Seems to me that for internal projects, the businesses could have chosen anything? Of course there was the hype, the hope to find more developers, the idea that there should be only one language in the company and so on. (All wrong, imo...) Maybe all those factors could be combined into a single one, "popularity" :-)
  - davidw 15y ago
    http://www.welton.it/articles/programming_language_economics http://www.welton.it/articles/programming_language_economics Is something I wrote about it several years ago.
    - Tichy 15y ago
      I guess once Apple has created thousands of Objective-C developers (already done), it might become interesting for other things, too. It is a self-feeding loop.
  - Daniel_Newby 15y ago
    How can one have "utter dismay" for 10 years? Shouldn't it at least become "hopeless resignation" after the first few years?
    - Tichy 15y ago
      Because I suck... I just didn't manage to jump ship yet. I'd take off time for months to work on my own projects but usually failed to finish what I started. Then money would get low and I would accept the next Java contract to make money again. These days I tell the recruiters that I am leaning towards Rails and JavaScript, but in both I don't really have as much experience as with Java. I did some small things with Rails, but I also don't have the killer combination of design sense and coding skill that the younger Rails devs seem to have. Still, I have rejected most Java projects in the last three years. Might grudgingly look into Android, though (I like Android, but I hate Java, as has probably become clear...).
rbanffy 15y ago
My favorite jab here is that thousands of IT managers, after some multi-day infomercial paid by IBM, Sun, BEA or Oracle, decided they'd buy something that limited their developers to Java. But really, Java is a fine language, not much worse than C++, and, as far as static typing goes, fairly OK. What bothers me most is the insane proliferation of bloated frameworks and tools that Java seems to generate around itself. In order to use several popular tools, you need Eclipse. It's not a bad IDE, but needing an IDE for even basic stuff like building a web app clearly is a symptom of something that went very wrong. Some wrong decisions are really hard to undo.
- mahmud 15y ago
  Java is an excellent language, far superior to C++. I only use Java SE and Apache Commons libraries, along with a very handful speciality libraries. Very little fuss. I like it.

by Tichy 15y ago

davidw 15y ago

> individually decided Languages aren't used in a vacuum, and the economics of them involve positive network externalities and switching costs, so 'individually' needs some qualification.

Tichy 15y ago
What kind of thing do you mean? I was (to my utter dismay) a Java developer for more than 10 years. Most of the time I worked on business internal projects or J2ME. Seems to me that for internal projects, the businesses could have chosen anything? Of course there was the hype, the hope to find more developers, the idea that there should be only one language in the company and so on. (All wrong, imo...) Maybe all those factors could be combined into a single one, "popularity" :-)
- davidw 15y ago
  http://www.welton.it/articles/programming_language_economics http://www.welton.it/articles/programming_language_economics Is something I wrote about it several years ago.
  - Tichy 15y ago
    I guess once Apple has created thousands of Objective-C developers (already done), it might become interesting for other things, too. It is a self-feeding loop.
- Daniel_Newby 15y ago
  How can one have "utter dismay" for 10 years? Shouldn't it at least become "hopeless resignation" after the first few years?
  - Tichy 15y ago
    Because I suck... I just didn't manage to jump ship yet. I'd take off time for months to work on my own projects but usually failed to finish what I started. Then money would get low and I would accept the next Java contract to make money again. These days I tell the recruiters that I am leaning towards Rails and JavaScript, but in both I don't really have as much experience as with Java. I did some small things with Rails, but I also don't have the killer combination of design sense and coding skill that the younger Rails devs seem to have. Still, I have rejected most Java projects in the last three years. Might grudgingly look into Android, though (I like Android, but I hate Java, as has probably become clear...).

rbanffy 15y ago

My favorite jab here is that thousands of IT managers, after some multi-day infomercial paid by IBM, Sun, BEA or Oracle, decided they'd buy something that limited their developers to Java. But really, Java is a fine language, not much worse than C++, and, as far as static typing goes, fairly OK. What bothers me most is the insane proliferation of bloated frameworks and tools that Java seems to generate around itself. In order to use several popular tools, you need Eclipse. It's not a bad IDE, but needing an IDE for even basic stuff like building a web app clearly is a symptom of something that went very wrong. Some wrong decisions are really hard to undo.

mahmud 15y ago
Java is an excellent language, far superior to C++. I only use Java SE and Apache Commons libraries, along with a very handful speciality libraries. Very little fuss. I like it.