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I think they are actually talking about a series hybrid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_vehicle_drivetrain#Series_hybrid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyb

I think they are actually talking about a series hybrid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_vehicle_drivetrain#Series_hybrid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_vehicle_drivetrain#Seri...), which is different than a plug-in hybrid (though it would be somewhat crazy to make a series hybrid that was not also a plug-in hybrid). .. as to why those never caught on: I have no idea. Plug-in series hybrids seem like a brilliant solution to most issues with both ICE cars/parallel hybrids and electric cars. My honest theory is that Tesla started pushing all-electric cars much earlier than anyone else would have, and that caused most people to skip plug-in series hybrids.

TylerE 3y ago
The problem is that by going with that, you lose many of the benefits of an EV, like not lugging around several hundred pounds of cast iron, or having oil to change.
- sjm-lbm 3y ago
  Totally fair. My thinking is that means you could lug around a lot less battery weight (ie, make the all-electric range 60 miles or so), basically just enough to complete the average amount of driving a car does in a day and operate on the assumption that most cars would get plugged in every night. In return, you'd get the ability to use the existing energy distribution infrastructure built around roadways (ie, gas stations) whenever you wanted to drive your car further than it could go on a charge. I'd also assume that the ICE/generator combo could be tuned to operate entirely within whatever window results in highest efficiency for the ICE engine, which should be a notable improvement on the way ICE efficiency varies by speed in traditional cars. I'm not saying that there aren't tradeoffs, just saying that it feels like an interesting idea. Enough so that I'm not at all sure why it didn't take off.
  - TylerE 3y ago
    If the engine is able to always operate at peak efficiency, there is little reason to bother with batteries beyond a bit for handling transient peaks. I guess what it comes to down for me is that the hybird as you described, while it has advantages over pure ICE, it's sorta the worst of both worlds - all the moving parts, all the complexity, the fire risk from both li-ion AND gasoline, more expensive (since two drivetrains, essentially). A constant RPM motor for an extended period isn't a super enjoyable sound, either.
    - sjm-lbm 3y ago
      > If the engine is able to always operate at peak efficiency, there is little reason to bother with batteries beyond a bit for handling transient peaks. My thinking here is that most of these theoretical cars would spend a good part of their life only operating on battery power - basically, all of the home-to-work-to-supermarket-to-home trips would be pure electric in my mind. So much so that I've wondered if the ECU would need to occasionally run the ICE for a bit just to make sure it doesn't ever spend so much time without being turned on that entirely different problems arise. > it's sorta the worst of both worlds I get this. This idea is very much the best of both worlds/worst of both worlds depending on your point of view. > more expensive (since two drivetrains, essentially) I'm not sure about this. I think the right comparison here is to imagine a battery that has (say) 25% of the range of a Model 3 battery, but is (say) 30 or 35% of the cost. Based on EV battery replacement cost, could you buy a cheap 3-cyl ICE engine and generator for that? Intuitively this feels possible, though I'll admit I don't have access to the data to be able to say, for sure how these costs would compare at scale. > A constant RPM motor for an extended period isn't a super enjoyable sound, either. The sound should be similar to the sound a pure ICE car makes on the freeway when on cruse at a constant speed and not changing gear. Yeah, you'd need to tune the exhaust to make sure the sound is pleasing, but this feels like a solvable problem also. (As an aside, sorry if it feels like I'm hassling you. I'm honestly not, this is just an idea that has lived in the back of my brain for a bit and I'm enjoying the discussion.)
      - TylerE 3y ago
        An ICE places a lot more constraints on design and manufacter...since it has to be behind a firewall, it's large, it has all kinds of fluids that need routing out... it's a nightmare. For comparison a typical EV battery is just a bunch of bricks inside the skateboard base.
eigenspace 3y ago
Ah good to know about the name "Series Hybrid", I've only ever heard people call a Series Hybrid a "Plug-In Hybrid" even in somewhat official and educational contexts, but I suspect that's just a symptom of the problem I was complaining about.
- sjm-lbm 3y ago
  For sure. And, at the risk of being pedantic, a plug-in hybrid can still be a parallel hybrid - series vs. parallel is about how the ICE power gets to the ground, whereas plug-in vs not is about the existence of a way to charge the hybrid battery packs separate from the ICE engine or regenerative breaking (or whatever else that's not electric power from a wall outlet).
  - usrusr 3y ago
    And most plug-in hybrids are (parallel). The "plug in" part is usually referring to (even if technically wrong) the electric subset being able to reasonably move the car alone, instead of being just a substitute to the ICE in near-idle cruise and an assistance at peak load. The combination of reasonable utility electric-only and serial is usually referred to as "electric with range extender" instead of hybrid.
twic 3y ago
Nissan make a series hybrid (which they call "e-power"), although with a very small (2.1 kWh) battery, so it doesn't work as a plug-in hybrid, and sadly it is apparently rubbish: https://www.arenaev.com/nissan_qashqai_epower_confirms_what_the_world_already_knew__hybrids_suck-news-1368.php https://www.arenaev.com/nissan_qashqai_epower_confirms_what_... I don't know what their engine is; if this is a normal car engine repurposed to drive a generator, this is not a great test of the idea.

TylerE 3y ago

The problem is that by going with that, you lose many of the benefits of an EV, like not lugging around several hundred pounds of cast iron, or having oil to change.

sjm-lbm 3y ago
Totally fair. My thinking is that means you could lug around a lot less battery weight (ie, make the all-electric range 60 miles or so), basically just enough to complete the average amount of driving a car does in a day and operate on the assumption that most cars would get plugged in every night. In return, you'd get the ability to use the existing energy distribution infrastructure built around roadways (ie, gas stations) whenever you wanted to drive your car further than it could go on a charge. I'd also assume that the ICE/generator combo could be tuned to operate entirely within whatever window results in highest efficiency for the ICE engine, which should be a notable improvement on the way ICE efficiency varies by speed in traditional cars. I'm not saying that there aren't tradeoffs, just saying that it feels like an interesting idea. Enough so that I'm not at all sure why it didn't take off.
- TylerE 3y ago
  If the engine is able to always operate at peak efficiency, there is little reason to bother with batteries beyond a bit for handling transient peaks. I guess what it comes to down for me is that the hybird as you described, while it has advantages over pure ICE, it's sorta the worst of both worlds - all the moving parts, all the complexity, the fire risk from both li-ion AND gasoline, more expensive (since two drivetrains, essentially). A constant RPM motor for an extended period isn't a super enjoyable sound, either.
  - sjm-lbm 3y ago
    > If the engine is able to always operate at peak efficiency, there is little reason to bother with batteries beyond a bit for handling transient peaks. My thinking here is that most of these theoretical cars would spend a good part of their life only operating on battery power - basically, all of the home-to-work-to-supermarket-to-home trips would be pure electric in my mind. So much so that I've wondered if the ECU would need to occasionally run the ICE for a bit just to make sure it doesn't ever spend so much time without being turned on that entirely different problems arise. > it's sorta the worst of both worlds I get this. This idea is very much the best of both worlds/worst of both worlds depending on your point of view. > more expensive (since two drivetrains, essentially) I'm not sure about this. I think the right comparison here is to imagine a battery that has (say) 25% of the range of a Model 3 battery, but is (say) 30 or 35% of the cost. Based on EV battery replacement cost, could you buy a cheap 3-cyl ICE engine and generator for that? Intuitively this feels possible, though I'll admit I don't have access to the data to be able to say, for sure how these costs would compare at scale. > A constant RPM motor for an extended period isn't a super enjoyable sound, either. The sound should be similar to the sound a pure ICE car makes on the freeway when on cruse at a constant speed and not changing gear. Yeah, you'd need to tune the exhaust to make sure the sound is pleasing, but this feels like a solvable problem also. (As an aside, sorry if it feels like I'm hassling you. I'm honestly not, this is just an idea that has lived in the back of my brain for a bit and I'm enjoying the discussion.)
    - TylerE 3y ago
      An ICE places a lot more constraints on design and manufacter...since it has to be behind a firewall, it's large, it has all kinds of fluids that need routing out... it's a nightmare. For comparison a typical EV battery is just a bunch of bricks inside the skateboard base.

eigenspace 3y ago

Ah good to know about the name "Series Hybrid", I've only ever heard people call a Series Hybrid a "Plug-In Hybrid" even in somewhat official and educational contexts, but I suspect that's just a symptom of the problem I was complaining about.

sjm-lbm 3y ago
For sure. And, at the risk of being pedantic, a plug-in hybrid can still be a parallel hybrid - series vs. parallel is about how the ICE power gets to the ground, whereas plug-in vs not is about the existence of a way to charge the hybrid battery packs separate from the ICE engine or regenerative breaking (or whatever else that's not electric power from a wall outlet).
- usrusr 3y ago
  And most plug-in hybrids are (parallel). The "plug in" part is usually referring to (even if technically wrong) the electric subset being able to reasonably move the car alone, instead of being just a substitute to the ICE in near-idle cruise and an assistance at peak load. The combination of reasonable utility electric-only and serial is usually referred to as "electric with range extender" instead of hybrid.

twic 3y ago

Nissan make a series hybrid (which they call "e-power"), although with a very small (2.1 kWh) battery, so it doesn't work as a plug-in hybrid, and sadly it is apparently rubbish: https://www.arenaev.com/nissan_qashqai_epower_confirms_what_the_world_already_knew__hybrids_suck-news-1368.php https://www.arenaev.com/nissan_qashqai_epower_confirms_what_... I don't know what their engine is; if this is a normal car engine repurposed to drive a generator, this is not a great test of the idea.