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> One potential issue relates to the load of what we drive. According to the institution, the average vehicle’s weight has increased from 1.5 metric tons in 197

> One potential issue relates to the load of what we drive. According to the institution, the average vehicle’s weight has increased from 1.5 metric tons in 1974 to nearly 2 metric tons in 2023. > In a statement, it said the reason behind the weight increase was “due to electric and hybrid batteries and the size of cars increasing.” The weight of a Suburban SUV is 3 tons (6000 lbs) although a Forrester is only 1.75 (3,500 lbs) but a Corolla is only 1.5 (3000 lbs). The roadster weighed under 1.5 tons but the rest of them are all above 2 tons [1]. I still would place money on most of the change has been about car size (sedan -> SUV) vs car type (ICE -> EV). [1]: https://www.way.com/blog/how-much-does-a-tesla-weigh/ https://www.way.com/blog/how-much-does-a-tesla-weigh/

mschuster91 3y ago
> I still would place money on most of the change has been about car size (sedan -> SUV) vs car type (ICE -> EV). And you'd win - the reasoning is known as "SUV loophole" [1]. [1] https://www.distilled.earth/p/the-loophole-that-made-cars-in-america https://www.distilled.earth/p/the-loophole-that-made-cars-in...
cocoflunchy 3y ago
Agreed, also see https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/weighty-issue-of-electric-cars https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/weighty-issue-of-e... for more
jeffbee 3y ago
But in the last 20 years sales of Suburbans have not increased.
- micromacrofoot 3y ago
  but the suburbans have gotten bigger and heavier
  - jeffbee 3y ago
    They got a lot heavier around 20 years ago, compared to 30 years ago, but since then they've been about 3 tons.
- lesuorac 3y ago
  I'm sorry to break this to you but 1974 isn't 20 years ago anymore.
- bryanlarsen 3y ago
  The market share of SUV's went from 27% to 50% from 2010 to 2019.
  - jeffbee 3y ago
    This is misdirection. The other person was trying to wave away the weight of EVs by pointing to the Suburban that weighs 3 tons. Now you come with the entire category. But the most popular SUVs weigh the same as other cars. For example the RAV4 weighs about the same as an Accord, and half a ton less than a Model Y.
    - lesuorac 3y ago
      The "other person" clearly called out the entire category. > I still would place money on most of the change has been about car size (sedan -> SUV) vs car type (ICE -> EV).
buran77 3y ago
But this does highlight some hypocrisy on the part of drivers (in general). When it's pointed out that switching from ICE to BEV has a fraction of the impact of switching to something like public transport, the response is invariably that "every little bit counts", "I'm trying to do my part". When it's pointed out that EVs are heavier than the equivalent ICE, the response is invariably "but just by a fraction", "cars were getting bigger anyway". Just like if you say "I can't own a BEV because [reasons]". The answer will be "you don't care enough about the environment", "you could always use [terribly inconvenient, expensive, or complicated solution]". If you suggest public transport or a bicycle instead of a car suddenly the inconvenience matters, "but the bus is crowded", "only comes every 30 minutes". The point being that if you let drivers self-evaluate their actions they will always find the explanation that provides them, individually, with better cover. Try to propose objectively better alternatives for the stated purpose and the wave of dislike will bury you not because it's wrong but because nobody likes someone removing their cover.
- zolbrek 3y ago
  You've met many people IRL who hem and haw like that? It must be in social circles where being anti-car is high status and they feel obligated to pay at least a bit of lip service.
  - irrational 3y ago
    I too was wondering where these people are that discuss the morality of their car choices with each other.
    - buran77 3y ago
      Internet discussions on divisive topics always contain morality/finger pointing. Goes for HN too. So I'm incredulous of your surprise seeing you've been around the internet for at least 7 years. For cars it's vehicle size or technology. For food it's animal or plant. There will always be a discussion and sometimes morality can't stay out of it. Also GP moved the goal posts a bit, why "IRL"? Is our discussion here worthless or not representative because we're not "IRL"? Yes, I do have such discussions of morality of choices in real life too. It's easier to have them on the internet because separating from your identity helps make whatever case you want to make. IRL is harder because you can't just close the tab and pretend it never happened so if you have some convictions you have to really stand by them. Am I to understand that you never, ever discuss the morality of things with anyone? Or just not cars? Not even in principle?
the_mitsuhiko 3y ago
> I still would place money on most of the change has been about car size (sedan -> SUV) vs car type (ICE -> EV). That might be true in the US, but the weight issue exists in Europe too. For instance we are going to soon trade our minivan (1.7t, 3,700lb) to an ID.Buzz (2.5t, 5,000lb) — officially that car is the replacement for the car we currently have. If you go from a VW Golf (1.3t, 2,800lb) to an ID.3 (1.9t, 4.100lb) you can see that it's not helped by picking a smaller EV. The ID.3 is heavier than our Minivan!

mschuster91 3y ago

> I still would place money on most of the change has been about car size (sedan -> SUV) vs car type (ICE -> EV). And you'd win - the reasoning is known as "SUV loophole" [1]. [1] https://www.distilled.earth/p/the-loophole-that-made-cars-in-america https://www.distilled.earth/p/the-loophole-that-made-cars-in...

cocoflunchy 3y ago

Agreed, also see https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/weighty-issue-of-electric-cars https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/weighty-issue-of-e... for more

jeffbee 3y ago

But in the last 20 years sales of Suburbans have not increased.

micromacrofoot 3y ago
but the suburbans have gotten bigger and heavier
- jeffbee 3y ago
  They got a lot heavier around 20 years ago, compared to 30 years ago, but since then they've been about 3 tons.
lesuorac 3y ago
I'm sorry to break this to you but 1974 isn't 20 years ago anymore.
bryanlarsen 3y ago
The market share of SUV's went from 27% to 50% from 2010 to 2019.
- jeffbee 3y ago
  This is misdirection. The other person was trying to wave away the weight of EVs by pointing to the Suburban that weighs 3 tons. Now you come with the entire category. But the most popular SUVs weigh the same as other cars. For example the RAV4 weighs about the same as an Accord, and half a ton less than a Model Y.
  - lesuorac 3y ago
    The "other person" clearly called out the entire category. > I still would place money on most of the change has been about car size (sedan -> SUV) vs car type (ICE -> EV).

buran77 3y ago

But this does highlight some hypocrisy on the part of drivers (in general). When it's pointed out that switching from ICE to BEV has a fraction of the impact of switching to something like public transport, the response is invariably that "every little bit counts", "I'm trying to do my part". When it's pointed out that EVs are heavier than the equivalent ICE, the response is invariably "but just by a fraction", "cars were getting bigger anyway". Just like if you say "I can't own a BEV because [reasons]". The answer will be "you don't care enough about the environment", "you could always use [terribly inconvenient, expensive, or complicated solution]". If you suggest public transport or a bicycle instead of a car suddenly the inconvenience matters, "but the bus is crowded", "only comes every 30 minutes". The point being that if you let drivers self-evaluate their actions they will always find the explanation that provides them, individually, with better cover. Try to propose objectively better alternatives for the stated purpose and the wave of dislike will bury you not because it's wrong but because nobody likes someone removing their cover.

zolbrek 3y ago
You've met many people IRL who hem and haw like that? It must be in social circles where being anti-car is high status and they feel obligated to pay at least a bit of lip service.
- irrational 3y ago
  I too was wondering where these people are that discuss the morality of their car choices with each other.
  - buran77 3y ago
    Internet discussions on divisive topics always contain morality/finger pointing. Goes for HN too. So I'm incredulous of your surprise seeing you've been around the internet for at least 7 years. For cars it's vehicle size or technology. For food it's animal or plant. There will always be a discussion and sometimes morality can't stay out of it. Also GP moved the goal posts a bit, why "IRL"? Is our discussion here worthless or not representative because we're not "IRL"? Yes, I do have such discussions of morality of choices in real life too. It's easier to have them on the internet because separating from your identity helps make whatever case you want to make. IRL is harder because you can't just close the tab and pretend it never happened so if you have some convictions you have to really stand by them. Am I to understand that you never, ever discuss the morality of things with anyone? Or just not cars? Not even in principle?

the_mitsuhiko 3y ago

> I still would place money on most of the change has been about car size (sedan -> SUV) vs car type (ICE -> EV). That might be true in the US, but the weight issue exists in Europe too. For instance we are going to soon trade our minivan (1.7t, 3,700lb) to an ID.Buzz (2.5t, 5,000lb) — officially that car is the replacement for the car we currently have. If you go from a VW Golf (1.3t, 2,800lb) to an ID.3 (1.9t, 4.100lb) you can see that it's not helped by picking a smaller EV. The ID.3 is heavier than our Minivan!