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Illinois had to abolish its death penalty after they discovered that they likely executed a dozen innocent people. Arkansas executed an innocent person. https:

Illinois had to abolish its death penalty after they discovered that they likely executed a dozen innocent people. Arkansas executed an innocent person. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/07/us/ledell-lee-dna-testing-arkansas.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/07/us/ledell-lee-dna-testing... By contrast, someone innocent where DNA evidence was available but untested for 21 years and was left to languish in prison. If the death penalty had been applied, there's no "undo" button. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/l-man-wrongly-imprisoned-decades-declared-innocent-dna-evidence-points-rcna72843 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/l-man-wrongly-imprisone...

throwaway447 3y ago
"LOS ANGELES — A man who spent more than 38 years behind bars for a 1983 murder he did not commit was declared innocent by a judge in Los Angeles on Wednesday." "“I am not standing up here a bitter man, but I just want to enjoy my life now while I have it,” Hastings said." As an American citizen, who has spent time in prison (abroad) and just came out recently, I tell you I have no idea how this guy survived this. He seems to be an incredibly strong person and his smile shows kindness.
- komali2 3y ago
  > The DNA profile was put into a state database and matched to a person who was convicted of an armed kidnapping and forced copulation of a female victim who was placed in a vehicle’s trunk. The suspect, Kenneth Packnett, died in prison in 2020, prosecutors said. I wonder if Kenneth Packnett knew someone else was serving time for his crime, and if so, why he didn't fess up. If he did and it was to avoid a few extra years tacked onto his sentence, truly scumbag behavior.
  - Clent 3y ago
    It should come as no surprise that someone who doesn't value others, someone who value power over others, would relish in the idea that an other is being incarcerated because of their actions and all it takes is their silence.
- neilkk 3y ago
  > He seems to be an incredibly strong person and his smile shows kindness. People often seem to say this about exonerees. Perhaps there's a selection bias at work here? Something like, those unjustly convicted who are not strong and determined never get exonerated. And nor do black men who don't present as calm and full of forgiveness?
ta1243 3y ago
There's no undo button for 21 of your best years in prison either. You can compensate -- $20m for example, which is a "partial" undo, but it doesn't undo the harm caused.
- sbuk 3y ago
  You're right, there is no undo button for unnecessary prison time. However, given the choice, I'm sure the innocent people that were essentially murdered by the state would have preferred the option or time and compensation. The death penalty is barbaric. There is no acceptable argument for it's existence.
  - vacuity 3y ago
    I personally agree that the death penalty shouldn't be a thing, but if a court only sentenced definitely guilty people who committed very heinous crimes to death, why is the death penalty barbaric in that case? (Not leading you on, just wondering what your take on this is.)
    - Clent 3y ago
      Definitely guilty meaning what? A full confession that is never retracted? What about cases where an innocent person is coerced into thinking they are guilty? In a world where we accept the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, where does this certainty of guilt arise?
      - vacuity 3y ago
        I don't see how Heisenberg comes into this. I'm intentionally excluding anyone who definitely wouldn't deserve the dealth penalty as a premise. I mean someone who is determined guilty by an oracle, or if that doesn't satisfy you, a person who had intent and premeditation, and is acting alone.
      - lost_tourist 3y ago
        There are crimes with dozens of witness clearly seeing the perp, caught on camera, etc. That's what they're talking about.
Dudeman112 3y ago
>If the death penalty had been applied, there's no "undo" button. There's no "undo" button for wasting away for 40 years in prison either To me it looks like a glitch of the human cognition to think that losing almost/everyone you love, being dropped into a vastly different world than you knew, having your financial and social prospects thrown in the trash, living in shitty conditions for decades, is oh so much better and moral than killing them
- danaris 3y ago
  Kinda makes one think that maybe a carceral justice system might not be the most humane and effective way of keeping our society safe and (relatively) orderly...
  - bufferoverflow 3y ago
    Any better ideas on how to deal with dangerous criminals? There are people who kill for fun, kill for money, people who rape, people who torture for fun.
    - danaris 3y ago
      Well, while I agree that such people exist, their frequency is vastly exaggerated by popular media. Many if not most of them can be prevented from ever becoming like that in the first place by eliminating poverty, which is a massive and omnipresent source of stress and trauma for people the world over. There are sadists, psychopaths, and even pedophiles (defined as "those who are sexually attracted to prepubescent bodies", not "those who commit actual acts of child sexual abuse") who live mostly-normal lives and if they ever desire to hurt others, do not act on those desires. This is a pretty clear signal that the existence of these types of people does not inherently lead to them becoming violent, dangerous, or otherwise causing harm. Is this a short-term project? Hell no. If a majority of the people in all the countries on Earth decided today to commit to a project to abolish the carceral state, I'd be surprised if we'd see it reach a stage where it's fully abolished within our lifetimes. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't set it as an aspirational goal, and start taking steps toward a world that doesn't have to worry about making a decision between executing innocent people and allowing people to walk free who are genuinely likely to harm others.

throwaway447 3y ago

"LOS ANGELES — A man who spent more than 38 years behind bars for a 1983 murder he did not commit was declared innocent by a judge in Los Angeles on Wednesday." "“I am not standing up here a bitter man, but I just want to enjoy my life now while I have it,” Hastings said." As an American citizen, who has spent time in prison (abroad) and just came out recently, I tell you I have no idea how this guy survived this. He seems to be an incredibly strong person and his smile shows kindness.

komali2 3y ago
> The DNA profile was put into a state database and matched to a person who was convicted of an armed kidnapping and forced copulation of a female victim who was placed in a vehicle’s trunk. The suspect, Kenneth Packnett, died in prison in 2020, prosecutors said. I wonder if Kenneth Packnett knew someone else was serving time for his crime, and if so, why he didn't fess up. If he did and it was to avoid a few extra years tacked onto his sentence, truly scumbag behavior.
- Clent 3y ago
  It should come as no surprise that someone who doesn't value others, someone who value power over others, would relish in the idea that an other is being incarcerated because of their actions and all it takes is their silence.
neilkk 3y ago
> He seems to be an incredibly strong person and his smile shows kindness. People often seem to say this about exonerees. Perhaps there's a selection bias at work here? Something like, those unjustly convicted who are not strong and determined never get exonerated. And nor do black men who don't present as calm and full of forgiveness?

ta1243 3y ago

There's no undo button for 21 of your best years in prison either. You can compensate -- $20m for example, which is a "partial" undo, but it doesn't undo the harm caused.

sbuk 3y ago
You're right, there is no undo button for unnecessary prison time. However, given the choice, I'm sure the innocent people that were essentially murdered by the state would have preferred the option or time and compensation. The death penalty is barbaric. There is no acceptable argument for it's existence.
- vacuity 3y ago
  I personally agree that the death penalty shouldn't be a thing, but if a court only sentenced definitely guilty people who committed very heinous crimes to death, why is the death penalty barbaric in that case? (Not leading you on, just wondering what your take on this is.)
  - Clent 3y ago
    Definitely guilty meaning what? A full confession that is never retracted? What about cases where an innocent person is coerced into thinking they are guilty? In a world where we accept the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, where does this certainty of guilt arise?
    - vacuity 3y ago
      I don't see how Heisenberg comes into this. I'm intentionally excluding anyone who definitely wouldn't deserve the dealth penalty as a premise. I mean someone who is determined guilty by an oracle, or if that doesn't satisfy you, a person who had intent and premeditation, and is acting alone.
    - lost_tourist 3y ago
      There are crimes with dozens of witness clearly seeing the perp, caught on camera, etc. That's what they're talking about.

Dudeman112 3y ago

>If the death penalty had been applied, there's no "undo" button. There's no "undo" button for wasting away for 40 years in prison either To me it looks like a glitch of the human cognition to think that losing almost/everyone you love, being dropped into a vastly different world than you knew, having your financial and social prospects thrown in the trash, living in shitty conditions for decades, is oh so much better and moral than killing them

danaris 3y ago
Kinda makes one think that maybe a carceral justice system might not be the most humane and effective way of keeping our society safe and (relatively) orderly...
- bufferoverflow 3y ago
  Any better ideas on how to deal with dangerous criminals? There are people who kill for fun, kill for money, people who rape, people who torture for fun.
  - danaris 3y ago
    Well, while I agree that such people exist, their frequency is vastly exaggerated by popular media. Many if not most of them can be prevented from ever becoming like that in the first place by eliminating poverty, which is a massive and omnipresent source of stress and trauma for people the world over. There are sadists, psychopaths, and even pedophiles (defined as "those who are sexually attracted to prepubescent bodies", not "those who commit actual acts of child sexual abuse") who live mostly-normal lives and if they ever desire to hurt others, do not act on those desires. This is a pretty clear signal that the existence of these types of people does not inherently lead to them becoming violent, dangerous, or otherwise causing harm. Is this a short-term project? Hell no. If a majority of the people in all the countries on Earth decided today to commit to a project to abolish the carceral state, I'd be surprised if we'd see it reach a stage where it's fully abolished within our lifetimes. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't set it as an aspirational goal, and start taking steps toward a world that doesn't have to worry about making a decision between executing innocent people and allowing people to walk free who are genuinely likely to harm others.