4 ms·

Anyone seeking to become a dictator, benevolent or not, shouldn't get the job. FOSS has enough issues with people who were merely anointed dictators.

castles 3y ago
Have seen too many instances of "too many chiefs" to instantly dismiss the idea. Perhaps voting on a time limited dictator/final arbiter?
- KingMob 3y ago
  If they're time-limited and/or recall-able, then is it accurate to say they're "dictators", though?
tome 3y ago
I'm not sure I understand why someone shouldn't be allow to be benevolent dictator of their own project, that they started.
- corethree 3y ago
  It's because people associate the word with actual government dictatorships and they immediately fall into the freedom and democracy patriotism mode. The reality is much more complex. If bdfl can work for open source it technically can work for the real thing as well. The keyword here is "can".
  - notpushkin 3y ago
    Yeah, the actual difference is huge. If your open source dictator sucks, you can use different project, or fork it, or start your own. If your real life dictator sucks, you can move your family for half your life savings and hope your next dictator is better, or try to protest and get killed.
    - corethree 3y ago
      Nah not that huge. It works in many places. See Singapore and if you can look past freedom and patriotism biases... you can live actually live a very good life in china under a dictator. Democracy is also a bit of an illusion. How often has a protest changed things? why is there huge wealth inequality and power concentrated among the few? Democracy Looks like much of the bad things associated with "dictatorships" with useless freedoms like voting and protesting as an outlet.
      - notpushkin 3y ago
        Yeah, I don't believe democracy is the solution, just that dictatorship isn't either.
- ookdatnog 3y ago
  It's clearly allowed, but I think the reaction here is negative because, unlike for example Python, this isn't someone making their own language from scratch which is then organically adopted. Instead, it's essentially someone looking at an established language and community, and saying "you'd all be better off if I was running the show here." And the person making that claim does not have the track record to make that claim believable. I don't think it's strange that people are reacting with some reservations here. Of course it's not a hostile takeover, he'll try to build something that convinces people that he's on the right track, and I wish him the best of luck with that. There's a small chance that the project succeeds and essentially becomes the successor language to Haskell, and there's a large chance that the project fizzles out, and both of those outcomes are fine. The worst possible outcome is that it succeeds well enough to fragment the ecosystem, but not enough to really take over.
  - pyrale 3y ago
    > Of course it's not a hostile takeover From the pov of the Haskell community and the way it has been shaped by its academic origins, and by the work and organizational choices of SPJ on GHC, there is little chance the community doesn't see this as a hostile takeover.
- whateveracct 3y ago
  This person hasn't started anything and is planning on piggybacking on GHC
- KingMob 3y ago
  Because I've seen what happens when they become not-so-benevolent. It's better to think of yourself as a shepherd, visionary, leader, etc. Mentally framing yourself as dictator affects your thinking. In short, BDFLs can more easily become assholes.
Nevermark 3y ago
Declaring yourself a benevolent dictator of your own project has zero negative impact on anyone. Frankly, it is the clearest thing about the project, how it will be run. One vision from a personality whose thought style comes through in Spades. That is refreshing. Anyone who joins the project knows exactly who they are signing up to help. Swing for the fences Nick Seagull!
- throwaway81523 3y ago
  "Anyone who joins the project knows exactly who they are signing up to help." I'm not so sure of that. The Neohaskell site seems designed to attract the naive. If someone isn't already using Haskell, how can they know what they are getting into with Neohaskell? Someone like Gabriella can see the substance (or lack of it) behind the claims, but to a non-Haskeller, there is nothing to go by except the sales pitch. Not good.
ljm 3y ago
I think, perhaps, that declaring oneself a benevolent dictator on a project that is more or less a proposal still is just jumping the gun a bit. Any project needs good leadership, of course, and at the start that leadership is going to be concentrated amongst a tiny number of people, maybe even just one. It's going to be hard to encourage contribution if, right off the bat, you say "I'm BDFL. End of discussion." So the author of the project might find themselves in a position where they have actively reduced buy-in.

castles 3y ago

Have seen too many instances of "too many chiefs" to instantly dismiss the idea. Perhaps voting on a time limited dictator/final arbiter?

KingMob 3y ago
If they're time-limited and/or recall-able, then is it accurate to say they're "dictators", though?

tome 3y ago

I'm not sure I understand why someone shouldn't be allow to be benevolent dictator of their own project, that they started.

corethree 3y ago
It's because people associate the word with actual government dictatorships and they immediately fall into the freedom and democracy patriotism mode. The reality is much more complex. If bdfl can work for open source it technically can work for the real thing as well. The keyword here is "can".
- notpushkin 3y ago
  Yeah, the actual difference is huge. If your open source dictator sucks, you can use different project, or fork it, or start your own. If your real life dictator sucks, you can move your family for half your life savings and hope your next dictator is better, or try to protest and get killed.
  - corethree 3y ago
    Nah not that huge. It works in many places. See Singapore and if you can look past freedom and patriotism biases... you can live actually live a very good life in china under a dictator. Democracy is also a bit of an illusion. How often has a protest changed things? why is there huge wealth inequality and power concentrated among the few? Democracy Looks like much of the bad things associated with "dictatorships" with useless freedoms like voting and protesting as an outlet.
    - notpushkin 3y ago
      Yeah, I don't believe democracy is the solution, just that dictatorship isn't either.
ookdatnog 3y ago
It's clearly allowed, but I think the reaction here is negative because, unlike for example Python, this isn't someone making their own language from scratch which is then organically adopted. Instead, it's essentially someone looking at an established language and community, and saying "you'd all be better off if I was running the show here." And the person making that claim does not have the track record to make that claim believable. I don't think it's strange that people are reacting with some reservations here. Of course it's not a hostile takeover, he'll try to build something that convinces people that he's on the right track, and I wish him the best of luck with that. There's a small chance that the project succeeds and essentially becomes the successor language to Haskell, and there's a large chance that the project fizzles out, and both of those outcomes are fine. The worst possible outcome is that it succeeds well enough to fragment the ecosystem, but not enough to really take over.
- pyrale 3y ago
  > Of course it's not a hostile takeover From the pov of the Haskell community and the way it has been shaped by its academic origins, and by the work and organizational choices of SPJ on GHC, there is little chance the community doesn't see this as a hostile takeover.
whateveracct 3y ago
This person hasn't started anything and is planning on piggybacking on GHC
KingMob 3y ago
Because I've seen what happens when they become not-so-benevolent. It's better to think of yourself as a shepherd, visionary, leader, etc. Mentally framing yourself as dictator affects your thinking. In short, BDFLs can more easily become assholes.

Nevermark 3y ago

Declaring yourself a benevolent dictator of your own project has zero negative impact on anyone. Frankly, it is the clearest thing about the project, how it will be run. One vision from a personality whose thought style comes through in Spades. That is refreshing. Anyone who joins the project knows exactly who they are signing up to help. Swing for the fences Nick Seagull!

throwaway81523 3y ago
"Anyone who joins the project knows exactly who they are signing up to help." I'm not so sure of that. The Neohaskell site seems designed to attract the naive. If someone isn't already using Haskell, how can they know what they are getting into with Neohaskell? Someone like Gabriella can see the substance (or lack of it) behind the claims, but to a non-Haskeller, there is nothing to go by except the sales pitch. Not good.

ljm 3y ago

I think, perhaps, that declaring oneself a benevolent dictator on a project that is more or less a proposal still is just jumping the gun a bit. Any project needs good leadership, of course, and at the start that leadership is going to be concentrated amongst a tiny number of people, maybe even just one. It's going to be hard to encourage contribution if, right off the bat, you say "I'm BDFL. End of discussion." So the author of the project might find themselves in a position where they have actively reduced buy-in.