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I'd be extremely skeptical, as Apple has shown over time that this kind of large, data intensive software is not in their wheelhouse. I think Apple makes some g

I'd be extremely skeptical, as Apple has shown over time that this kind of large, data intensive software is not in their wheelhouse. I think Apple makes some great products, but if I had to make choose the shittiest products Apple makes, it would have to be Siri, Apple Maps and iCloud. These are all areas where I think the Google equivalent (Google Assistant, Google Maps and GDrive/Docs) are much better, and the these are all much more closely related to search.

HumblyTossed 3y ago
> ... it would have to be Siri, Apple Maps and iCloud Probably. And I think a large reason for that is because they don't like to solicit feedback for how their products work and for those types of products you NEED feedback.
- freedomben 3y ago
  It's just not in their DNA. Steve Jobs famously laid out the philosophy of "the user doesn't know what they want until we tell them" and it's a core part of their formula. At any rate, they have enough money and time to get it wrong for a long time before getting it right.
psyclobe 3y ago
That might’ve been true a year ago but today apples maps is a viable replacement for google maps as well as their Siri offerings.
- hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
  I haven't used Apple Maps much, but Siri is a total dog pile compared to Google Assistant.
  - barkerja 3y ago
    It really depends on what and how you use it. I know that's not saying a lot, but Siri is genuinely good at some things, and incredibly terrible at others. I know the same can be said about Assistant, Alexa, etc.
- wtmt 3y ago
  That may be true only in the U.S. and a few other countries. I recall Apple said several years ago (maybe around 2017?) that it would improve maps in India. It’s 2023 and it still can’t find common addresses in major cities. Considering that Apple has repeatedly stated that India is a key market, is it the competency of the maps team that ought to be questioned?
- nullwarp 3y ago
  Apple Maps is terrible at navigation anytime you get outside of just the largest metro areas. There's multiple roads where it will tell you constantly to take a U turn while indicating a straight line visually. It routinely lags weeks behind road closures. It's lane suggestions are laughable at best. I've driven many many miles around the US and Apple maps is easily a distant third between Waze and Google
baggy_trough 3y ago
I prefer Apple Maps to Google Maps in the San Francisco area. It looks better, the routes are on par, and it's not festooned with ads.
- tjrowjajd 3y ago
  [dead]
- barkerja 3y ago
  Apple Maps is actually really good these days. It doesn't have feature parity with Google Maps, but I don't necessarily consider that a bad thing. The core things: directions, POI and overall design are just as good, if not better than Google.
  - Dig1t 3y ago
    What features are missing at this point? I think their addition of offline maps this year was the last thing that they were missing. At least as far as I can tell.
antidnan 3y ago
+1 for Apple Maps being a lot better than Google these days, at least for navigation. Seems like Google maps is more focused on search and discovery.
mikeryan 3y ago
I wonder if anyone is starting to think that OpenAI And it’s ilk has the ability to commoditize web search. Right now the others lose because Google’s really good at it. I have to admit every time I’ve tried a different search engine I’ve been massively disappointed. Heck the same for any map besides Google (except Waze which well…) Total spit ball here - but I wonder if the thought is more trying to get to where “the puck’s going to be” where the search Apple is working on is personalized and integrated across all your life/apps/platforms as opposed to something you do typing into a field on a website. But also with a focus on improving productivity and user value then as a way to target ads.
- steve1977 3y ago
  Google hasn’t been really good at web search anymore for quite a while now
- daedalus_j 3y ago
  I see this comment a lot recently and it perplexes me every time... I don't see how LLMs are search tools. Am I using them wrong? I've asked them for information with sources and they've hallucinated entire answers including accurate-looking but entirely non-existant URLs as sources. They've been great for getting some ideas, and summarizing things, but if I venture into an area that I'm not a domain expert in an LLM seems like a terrible way to get info. But everyone seems to think they're the next search replacement... So I have to wonder if I've just got bad luck with them, or somehow haven't groked how to get them to give valid truthful info.
  - realo 3y ago
    Well.. at least for technical things, phind.com is cool, if only for the list of references it displays in the rightmost column. Much much better than anything I get with an equivalent google search.
  - gaganyaan 3y ago
    They're a direct replacement for most of the ad-filled search queries you might have used Google for before like "Trip ideas for Paris" or "Meal plan ideas". The best part is that you can ask follow up questions with the same interface, which you can't after clicking onto some random web page match from the search results. Using them for something like "SQL error: <some copy/pasted error>" is much more dicey, but Google is unlikely to get much ad revenue from a query like that anyways. Sure, the use case of "find this page" isn't going away, but I'd be quite scared if I were Google, because the use case where they make the most money is going to be handled by LLMs shortly instead of search.
Scubabear68 3y ago
Apple Maps is now superior for me in every way. Two things at play: Apple Maps has gotten much better in the past couple of years, while Google Maps appears to be in unsupported bit rot mode. Google maps is still better at searching for retail stores, Apple Maps is better at everything else, 10x so for driving.
- n0zmer 3y ago
  I live in a major US city and I refuse to use Apple maps for navigation. In the past year, I've tried it every so often and it has taken me to the wrong place, on strange, longer routes, and tried to take me through roads that don't even exist. The traffic information is also terribly inaccurate. So no, maybe in some cities it works, but its still a pile a garbage compared to Google maps.
  - falsenapkin 3y ago
    Pretty subjective at the end of the day. Personally I find them roughly equivalent quality in mapping/traffic but Google has turned into a pile of sponsored content. Apple frequently has the exact locations of businesses within a building wrong or confusing but I'll take some walking around a building over a recommendation for Subway when I search for "camera store". Anyway I submit corrections to Apple Maps and they accept those corrections within a couple of days 90% of the time and when I need that thing in the future it is correct.
  - cassianoleal 3y ago
    I mostly use navigation for cycling in London and driving in parts of South America. Google Maps does what you're describing to me more often than I care. Apple Maps has been fairly solid. In countryside England, both can give bad directions some times but I have still found Apple's to be superior.
    - dontlaugh 3y ago
      Apple Maps is better overall for driving in the UK too.
wenc 3y ago
They could buy Kagi.
- rafram 3y ago
  Kagi, as everyone seems to forget, is a frontend for the Google Search API with some nice filtering/custom prioritization features. The results are good because they’re Google results.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > Kagi, as everyone seems to forget, is a frontend for the Google Search API Do we have recent numbers for this? I find Kagi’s results hands down better on most queries than Google.
  - hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
    This is wrong: https://help.kagi.com/kagi/search-details/search-sources.html https://help.kagi.com/kagi/search-details/search-sources.htm...
- nullwarp 3y ago
  That would be a sad sad day.
grouchomarx 3y ago
iCloud's spam filters are useless and have been for a decade. Could never use iCloud as a primary email address
keep_reading 3y ago
What's Apple doing with their crawler's data? Check your web logs for hits from AppleBot -- they're doing full crawls of the web from what I can see
- nielsbot 3y ago
  i think it’s used to power results in your phone’s search box? maybe also used to siri… (just speculating)
Dig1t 3y ago
Apple Maps and iCloud are excellent. Siri still does suck. Your conception of the first two are probably due to their subpar launch. But they have improved to the point of being better and more tightly integrated than their competitors nowadays.
rabbits_2002 3y ago
I disagree about apple maps, I like it more than google maps now. I wouldn’t exactly call Google Drive/Docs a perfect experience either.

HumblyTossed 3y ago

> ... it would have to be Siri, Apple Maps and iCloud Probably. And I think a large reason for that is because they don't like to solicit feedback for how their products work and for those types of products you NEED feedback.

freedomben 3y ago
It's just not in their DNA. Steve Jobs famously laid out the philosophy of "the user doesn't know what they want until we tell them" and it's a core part of their formula. At any rate, they have enough money and time to get it wrong for a long time before getting it right.

psyclobe 3y ago

That might’ve been true a year ago but today apples maps is a viable replacement for google maps as well as their Siri offerings.

hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
I haven't used Apple Maps much, but Siri is a total dog pile compared to Google Assistant.
- barkerja 3y ago
  It really depends on what and how you use it. I know that's not saying a lot, but Siri is genuinely good at some things, and incredibly terrible at others. I know the same can be said about Assistant, Alexa, etc.
wtmt 3y ago
That may be true only in the U.S. and a few other countries. I recall Apple said several years ago (maybe around 2017?) that it would improve maps in India. It’s 2023 and it still can’t find common addresses in major cities. Considering that Apple has repeatedly stated that India is a key market, is it the competency of the maps team that ought to be questioned?
nullwarp 3y ago
Apple Maps is terrible at navigation anytime you get outside of just the largest metro areas. There's multiple roads where it will tell you constantly to take a U turn while indicating a straight line visually. It routinely lags weeks behind road closures. It's lane suggestions are laughable at best. I've driven many many miles around the US and Apple maps is easily a distant third between Waze and Google

baggy_trough 3y ago

I prefer Apple Maps to Google Maps in the San Francisco area. It looks better, the routes are on par, and it's not festooned with ads.

tjrowjajd 3y ago
[dead]
barkerja 3y ago
Apple Maps is actually really good these days. It doesn't have feature parity with Google Maps, but I don't necessarily consider that a bad thing. The core things: directions, POI and overall design are just as good, if not better than Google.
- Dig1t 3y ago
  What features are missing at this point? I think their addition of offline maps this year was the last thing that they were missing. At least as far as I can tell.

antidnan 3y ago

+1 for Apple Maps being a lot better than Google these days, at least for navigation. Seems like Google maps is more focused on search and discovery.

mikeryan 3y ago

I wonder if anyone is starting to think that OpenAI And it’s ilk has the ability to commoditize web search. Right now the others lose because Google’s really good at it. I have to admit every time I’ve tried a different search engine I’ve been massively disappointed. Heck the same for any map besides Google (except Waze which well…) Total spit ball here - but I wonder if the thought is more trying to get to where “the puck’s going to be” where the search Apple is working on is personalized and integrated across all your life/apps/platforms as opposed to something you do typing into a field on a website. But also with a focus on improving productivity and user value then as a way to target ads.

steve1977 3y ago
Google hasn’t been really good at web search anymore for quite a while now
daedalus_j 3y ago
I see this comment a lot recently and it perplexes me every time... I don't see how LLMs are search tools. Am I using them wrong? I've asked them for information with sources and they've hallucinated entire answers including accurate-looking but entirely non-existant URLs as sources. They've been great for getting some ideas, and summarizing things, but if I venture into an area that I'm not a domain expert in an LLM seems like a terrible way to get info. But everyone seems to think they're the next search replacement... So I have to wonder if I've just got bad luck with them, or somehow haven't groked how to get them to give valid truthful info.
- realo 3y ago
  Well.. at least for technical things, phind.com is cool, if only for the list of references it displays in the rightmost column. Much much better than anything I get with an equivalent google search.
- gaganyaan 3y ago
  They're a direct replacement for most of the ad-filled search queries you might have used Google for before like "Trip ideas for Paris" or "Meal plan ideas". The best part is that you can ask follow up questions with the same interface, which you can't after clicking onto some random web page match from the search results. Using them for something like "SQL error: <some copy/pasted error>" is much more dicey, but Google is unlikely to get much ad revenue from a query like that anyways. Sure, the use case of "find this page" isn't going away, but I'd be quite scared if I were Google, because the use case where they make the most money is going to be handled by LLMs shortly instead of search.

Scubabear68 3y ago

Apple Maps is now superior for me in every way. Two things at play: Apple Maps has gotten much better in the past couple of years, while Google Maps appears to be in unsupported bit rot mode. Google maps is still better at searching for retail stores, Apple Maps is better at everything else, 10x so for driving.

n0zmer 3y ago
I live in a major US city and I refuse to use Apple maps for navigation. In the past year, I've tried it every so often and it has taken me to the wrong place, on strange, longer routes, and tried to take me through roads that don't even exist. The traffic information is also terribly inaccurate. So no, maybe in some cities it works, but its still a pile a garbage compared to Google maps.
- falsenapkin 3y ago
  Pretty subjective at the end of the day. Personally I find them roughly equivalent quality in mapping/traffic but Google has turned into a pile of sponsored content. Apple frequently has the exact locations of businesses within a building wrong or confusing but I'll take some walking around a building over a recommendation for Subway when I search for "camera store". Anyway I submit corrections to Apple Maps and they accept those corrections within a couple of days 90% of the time and when I need that thing in the future it is correct.
- cassianoleal 3y ago
  I mostly use navigation for cycling in London and driving in parts of South America. Google Maps does what you're describing to me more often than I care. Apple Maps has been fairly solid. In countryside England, both can give bad directions some times but I have still found Apple's to be superior.
  - dontlaugh 3y ago
    Apple Maps is better overall for driving in the UK too.

wenc 3y ago

They could buy Kagi.

rafram 3y ago
Kagi, as everyone seems to forget, is a frontend for the Google Search API with some nice filtering/custom prioritization features. The results are good because they’re Google results.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > Kagi, as everyone seems to forget, is a frontend for the Google Search API Do we have recent numbers for this? I find Kagi’s results hands down better on most queries than Google.
- hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
  This is wrong: https://help.kagi.com/kagi/search-details/search-sources.html https://help.kagi.com/kagi/search-details/search-sources.htm...
nullwarp 3y ago
That would be a sad sad day.

grouchomarx 3y ago

iCloud's spam filters are useless and have been for a decade. Could never use iCloud as a primary email address

keep_reading 3y ago

What's Apple doing with their crawler's data? Check your web logs for hits from AppleBot -- they're doing full crawls of the web from what I can see

nielsbot 3y ago
i think it’s used to power results in your phone’s search box? maybe also used to siri… (just speculating)

Dig1t 3y ago

Apple Maps and iCloud are excellent. Siri still does suck. Your conception of the first two are probably due to their subpar launch. But they have improved to the point of being better and more tightly integrated than their competitors nowadays.

rabbits_2002 3y ago

I disagree about apple maps, I like it more than google maps now. I wouldn’t exactly call Google Drive/Docs a perfect experience either.