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>IMHO breaking up corporations is a bit heavy-handed and not the only remedy available. Respectfully disagree in Google's case. Indexing is not their only adva

>IMHO breaking up corporations is a bit heavy-handed and not the only remedy available. Respectfully disagree in Google's case. Indexing is not their only advantage - having full, unfettered access and control over email, maps, Android play, cloud, and the other myriad divisions plus knows what else via side deals is too much and fully justifies breaking up the business. Your suggestion works if we were still 2002-ish, before they got too big

0xDEF 3y ago
It's funny how eager Americans are to break up the Big Tech companies that happen to be the only reason the US economy is not a complete dumpster fire. Look at GDP growth for the US vs. the Eurozone since 2008. The high level of integration, both horizontal and vertical, is what makes the US Big Tech companies so economically productive and valuable. But sure. Kill your software industry. Does the US even know how to do anything else? Does the US even manufacture anything physical anymore? Last I checked tiny little Denmark produces more wind turbines than the US and tiny little Switzerland produces more CNC machines than the US.
- bigyikes 3y ago
  I can buy this argument for Apple, but Google? To me it seems like there is an intuitive split between Search+Ads, GSuite, YouTube, and Android. Why do you believe breaking these up would adversely affect the US economy?
- anon25783 3y ago
  > the only reason the US economy is not a complete dumpster fire. The US economy is a complete dumpster fire for those of us worth less than seven figures. Big tech monopolization does not strengthen our productive capacity, and breaking up the big tech companies won't weaken it. If anything, it will strengthen the economy by making it more viable to found a tech startup without the explicit goal of being bought out. We aren't "killing" our software industry; we're revitalizing it.
  - enraged_camel 3y ago
    I’m all for breaking them up but I’m not convinced it will revitalize the industry. Google is enormous. Even if it is broken up, the resulting pieces will still be massive, and almost impossible to compete against.
  - satvikpendem 3y ago
    > The US economy is a complete dumpster fire for those of us worth less than seven figures. Not sure what you mean, you can invest in VTI, wait 30 years, and hit 7 figures real. The US economy is stronger than almost every other economy on the planet and is so even for the non-rich.
    - smolder 3y ago
      > Not sure what you mean Look at the risks a poorer person in the US has to contend with, many of them life-ending expensive, as well as the difficulty of finding places to live that offer decent job markets, services, amenities, and are affordable. Life here can get really ugly for people that are well above the 'poverty line'. That's not to say it's really the overall economy making things hard for them, but more like microeconomic constraints. However, that's the lens they see the economy through.
  - jppittma 3y ago
    Idk. This makes me super nervous. Look at what the bell breakup did for innovation in software. The transistor was literally invented there before it was broken up. Likewise, I think it's probable that if Google is broken up, you'll not see anything as innovative as the transformer models, GFS, or Spanner anymore. I think quality of life for employees will likely go down, as it did when bell labs was broken up.
    - passwordoops 3y ago
      Different time. Bell was one of the last great break ups and occurred just before the modern pro-Big Business, ultra-financialized era kicked off in earnest. If Bell weren't broken up, Bell labs would have been shut down or severely trimmed regardless as the execs diverted the R&D spend to stock buybacks or other inefficient use of funds that benefits the shareholders over all else (e.g. Boeing). I think a better parallel is the late-20s early-30s Robber Baron breakups. There's been much ink and elections spilled over how that anti-trust era contributed directly to the proliferation of post-war innovation (e.g. https://bookshop.org/p/books/goliath-the-100-year-war-between-monopoly-power-and-democracy-matt-stoller/6687726 https://bookshop.org/p/books/goliath-the-100-year-war-betwee...)
- hackernewds 3y ago
  Hey that's a great point! Meanwhile you have China, Russia, Israel, Korea passing all sorts of anti competitive edge AND funding to singular tech companies to corner the GLOBAL market. One need just look at Tiktok and Temu and Huawei
- WrongAssumption 3y ago
  Yes, the United States is the #2 manufacturer after China, producing 16.6% of manufacturing output with just 4.2% of the world population. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/manufacturing-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/manufactu...
lemoncookiechip 3y ago
Microsoft has all the same services that Google has, including the ones you just mentioned and more. Bing, Outlook, Bing Maps, Microsoft Store, Azure, Windows, Edge, Office, OneDrive, XBOX division, and more. If they can't compete with Google, then maybe they aren't offering as good a service for most of these, and it's not for lack of trying to manipulate the market into using their services. I do agree with what you said though, both Alphabet and Microsoft should be broken up, and I don't mean just having multiple separate companies that operate closely together, but proper separation. This also goes for META and Amazon.
- theshrike79 3y ago
  It's not for a lack of trying, but Google has their tentacles everywhere. You literally can't make a mobile phone today without having support for all Google services. Native support is better than 3rd party. And now all of your user's data is in Google's hands. Yes, there are some extreme ... fanatics(?), who can live with a phone that doesn't have YouTube, Gmail, Google Maps, Google Drive or Play Store in it, but the Joe/Jill Regular will never ever go for that today. Of all the companies beside Apple, Samsung is the only one I can think of with the muscle to maybe do a device with all of their own services.
  - M4v3R 3y ago
    > Yes, there are some extreme ... fanatics(?), who can live with a phone that doesn't have YouTube, Gmail, Google Maps, Google Drive or Play Store in it, but the Joe/Jill Regular will never ever go for that today. I would fit your definition of fanatic and I have a friend who does too. The only google service we still use is YouTube because that’s the hardest one to replace entirely unless you want to cut yourself from a lot of very interesting and entertaining content. Otherwise it’s not so hard. Gmail is hardly the best offering on the market, Apple Maps are good enough for most tasks (Google Maps still has better POI data sadly), etc. You don’t need to be a “fanatic” to de-googleify your life, even if only partially.
    - theshrike79 3y ago

0xDEF 3y ago

It's funny how eager Americans are to break up the Big Tech companies that happen to be the only reason the US economy is not a complete dumpster fire. Look at GDP growth for the US vs. the Eurozone since 2008. The high level of integration, both horizontal and vertical, is what makes the US Big Tech companies so economically productive and valuable. But sure. Kill your software industry. Does the US even know how to do anything else? Does the US even manufacture anything physical anymore? Last I checked tiny little Denmark produces more wind turbines than the US and tiny little Switzerland produces more CNC machines than the US.

bigyikes 3y ago
I can buy this argument for Apple, but Google? To me it seems like there is an intuitive split between Search+Ads, GSuite, YouTube, and Android. Why do you believe breaking these up would adversely affect the US economy?
anon25783 3y ago
> the only reason the US economy is not a complete dumpster fire. The US economy is a complete dumpster fire for those of us worth less than seven figures. Big tech monopolization does not strengthen our productive capacity, and breaking up the big tech companies won't weaken it. If anything, it will strengthen the economy by making it more viable to found a tech startup without the explicit goal of being bought out. We aren't "killing" our software industry; we're revitalizing it.
- enraged_camel 3y ago
  I’m all for breaking them up but I’m not convinced it will revitalize the industry. Google is enormous. Even if it is broken up, the resulting pieces will still be massive, and almost impossible to compete against.
- satvikpendem 3y ago
  > The US economy is a complete dumpster fire for those of us worth less than seven figures. Not sure what you mean, you can invest in VTI, wait 30 years, and hit 7 figures real. The US economy is stronger than almost every other economy on the planet and is so even for the non-rich.
  - smolder 3y ago
    > Not sure what you mean Look at the risks a poorer person in the US has to contend with, many of them life-ending expensive, as well as the difficulty of finding places to live that offer decent job markets, services, amenities, and are affordable. Life here can get really ugly for people that are well above the 'poverty line'. That's not to say it's really the overall economy making things hard for them, but more like microeconomic constraints. However, that's the lens they see the economy through.
- jppittma 3y ago
  Idk. This makes me super nervous. Look at what the bell breakup did for innovation in software. The transistor was literally invented there before it was broken up. Likewise, I think it's probable that if Google is broken up, you'll not see anything as innovative as the transformer models, GFS, or Spanner anymore. I think quality of life for employees will likely go down, as it did when bell labs was broken up.
  - passwordoops 3y ago
    Different time. Bell was one of the last great break ups and occurred just before the modern pro-Big Business, ultra-financialized era kicked off in earnest. If Bell weren't broken up, Bell labs would have been shut down or severely trimmed regardless as the execs diverted the R&D spend to stock buybacks or other inefficient use of funds that benefits the shareholders over all else (e.g. Boeing). I think a better parallel is the late-20s early-30s Robber Baron breakups. There's been much ink and elections spilled over how that anti-trust era contributed directly to the proliferation of post-war innovation (e.g. https://bookshop.org/p/books/goliath-the-100-year-war-between-monopoly-power-and-democracy-matt-stoller/6687726 https://bookshop.org/p/books/goliath-the-100-year-war-betwee...)
hackernewds 3y ago
Hey that's a great point! Meanwhile you have China, Russia, Israel, Korea passing all sorts of anti competitive edge AND funding to singular tech companies to corner the GLOBAL market. One need just look at Tiktok and Temu and Huawei
WrongAssumption 3y ago
Yes, the United States is the #2 manufacturer after China, producing 16.6% of manufacturing output with just 4.2% of the world population. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/manufacturing-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/manufactu...

lemoncookiechip 3y ago

Microsoft has all the same services that Google has, including the ones you just mentioned and more. Bing, Outlook, Bing Maps, Microsoft Store, Azure, Windows, Edge, Office, OneDrive, XBOX division, and more. If they can't compete with Google, then maybe they aren't offering as good a service for most of these, and it's not for lack of trying to manipulate the market into using their services. I do agree with what you said though, both Alphabet and Microsoft should be broken up, and I don't mean just having multiple separate companies that operate closely together, but proper separation. This also goes for META and Amazon.

theshrike79 3y ago
It's not for a lack of trying, but Google has their tentacles everywhere. You literally can't make a mobile phone today without having support for all Google services. Native support is better than 3rd party. And now all of your user's data is in Google's hands. Yes, there are some extreme ... fanatics(?), who can live with a phone that doesn't have YouTube, Gmail, Google Maps, Google Drive or Play Store in it, but the Joe/Jill Regular will never ever go for that today. Of all the companies beside Apple, Samsung is the only one I can think of with the muscle to maybe do a device with all of their own services.
- M4v3R 3y ago
  > Yes, there are some extreme ... fanatics(?), who can live with a phone that doesn't have YouTube, Gmail, Google Maps, Google Drive or Play Store in it, but the Joe/Jill Regular will never ever go for that today. I would fit your definition of fanatic and I have a friend who does too. The only google service we still use is YouTube because that’s the hardest one to replace entirely unless you want to cut yourself from a lot of very interesting and entertaining content. Otherwise it’s not so hard. Gmail is hardly the best offering on the market, Apple Maps are good enough for most tasks (Google Maps still has better POI data sadly), etc. You don’t need to be a “fanatic” to de-googleify your life, even if only partially.
  - theshrike79 3y ago