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> Trying to separate gender from "biological sex" trivializes the reality of trans people. The reality of trans people is that their gender identity does not m

> Trying to separate gender from "biological sex" trivializes the reality of trans people. The reality of trans people is that their gender identity does not match their biological sex, either at birth or at any time thereafter. That's what being trans is. And no, you cannot change your biological sex. Gene therapy and brain transplants aren't there yet. None of this trivializes trans people, rather it is your argument that trivializes the experience of women who were born and raised female and the distinct experiences and perspectives stemming from that.

kdmccormick 3y ago
Our base disagreement is whether human gender and sex are distinct things. I don't think there's anything I do to change your mind and convince you that they're not, so I recommend you do some research or talk to a trans person in your life and see if it updates your understanding of the topic.
- jadamson 3y ago
  I know trans people, I've including a couple I worked with for years and remain in contact with. Neither would ever claim that sex and gender are the same thing, because they don't have brain rot. Gender is cultural. There are cultures with more than two genders, but they continue to have the same distribution of X and Y chromosomes because sex is biological. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender https://www.coe.int/en/web/gender-matters/sex-and-gender https://www.coe.int/en/web/gender-matters/sex-and-gender
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    Sex is biological and multidimensional; but the construct assigning a binary categorization based on some (not necessarily static over time) sex traits is, even though the category assigned is often described, even in law, as the described-person’s “sex” is, in fact, a form of socially ascribed gender.
    - graplp 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - kdmccormick 3y ago
        [flagged]
        graplp 3y ago
        His argument is basically just that redefining words can be used to make statements true that weren't true before the definition was changed. This is great, I can make the statement "pigs can fly" true if I redefine "pigs" to mean what we currently call "birds", or redefine "fly" to mean "roll around in the mud". Easy! So if it is your stance that men who call themselves women are female, or as you stated it, "trans women are female", then any disagreement is easily solved: simply redefine "female" to include those men. A brilliant masterstroke of non-argument, as you don't even need to justify this nonsense. It's true because you said it's true! Of course as per usual this is without any regard to what people who are actually female might think about this, being lumped in with these prostate-havers who fetishize their existence. The Categories Were Made For Man, indeed.
      - dragonwriter 3y ago
        > So if I take my male dog to the vets and ask them to change him to a female dog, how does this work? I’m not sure what your question has to do with my post, because I didn’t say anything that could even be remotely be sensibly extended into anything which makes that question make sense, unless the answer you are looking for is “alter society and particularly the social constructs on the basis of which it ascribes gender to dogs”. (And, as well as being far afield from the post it responds to, the question is far afield from the subject being discussed, too.)
        graplp 3y ago
        I'm enquiring as to whether you can apply this multidimensional concept of sex that you alluded to in the above comment to any species other than humans. Dogs, for example. Or maybe asparagus. Perhaps even earthworms. Please explain how this works.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
foogazi 3y ago
> None of this trivializes trans people, rather it is your argument that trivializes the experience of women who were born and raised female and the distinct experiences and perspectives stemming from that. I have thought about this, and as a cis male, do I have the right to deny any other human their experience of being male ? If someone lost their male reproductive organs in an accident, from disease or at birth - should I single them out and police their gender ID ? Is someone more male than me ? Am I more male than someone else ? After this mental exercise I realized I can’t gatekeep another person’s experience. Everyone alive has paid the price of admission to exist as best they can with whatever they have.
dragonwriter 3y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
Simulacra 3y ago
It's a statement of fact and science versus psychology.

kdmccormick 3y ago

Our base disagreement is whether human gender and sex are distinct things. I don't think there's anything I do to change your mind and convince you that they're not, so I recommend you do some research or talk to a trans person in your life and see if it updates your understanding of the topic.

jadamson 3y ago
I know trans people, I've including a couple I worked with for years and remain in contact with. Neither would ever claim that sex and gender are the same thing, because they don't have brain rot. Gender is cultural. There are cultures with more than two genders, but they continue to have the same distribution of X and Y chromosomes because sex is biological. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender https://www.coe.int/en/web/gender-matters/sex-and-gender https://www.coe.int/en/web/gender-matters/sex-and-gender
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  Sex is biological and multidimensional; but the construct assigning a binary categorization based on some (not necessarily static over time) sex traits is, even though the category assigned is often described, even in law, as the described-person’s “sex” is, in fact, a form of socially ascribed gender.
  - graplp 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - kdmccormick 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - graplp 3y ago
        His argument is basically just that redefining words can be used to make statements true that weren't true before the definition was changed. This is great, I can make the statement "pigs can fly" true if I redefine "pigs" to mean what we currently call "birds", or redefine "fly" to mean "roll around in the mud". Easy! So if it is your stance that men who call themselves women are female, or as you stated it, "trans women are female", then any disagreement is easily solved: simply redefine "female" to include those men. A brilliant masterstroke of non-argument, as you don't even need to justify this nonsense. It's true because you said it's true! Of course as per usual this is without any regard to what people who are actually female might think about this, being lumped in with these prostate-havers who fetishize their existence. The Categories Were Made For Man, indeed.
    - dragonwriter 3y ago
      > So if I take my male dog to the vets and ask them to change him to a female dog, how does this work? I’m not sure what your question has to do with my post, because I didn’t say anything that could even be remotely be sensibly extended into anything which makes that question make sense, unless the answer you are looking for is “alter society and particularly the social constructs on the basis of which it ascribes gender to dogs”. (And, as well as being far afield from the post it responds to, the question is far afield from the subject being discussed, too.)
      - graplp 3y ago
        I'm enquiring as to whether you can apply this multidimensional concept of sex that you alluded to in the above comment to any species other than humans. Dogs, for example. Or maybe asparagus. Perhaps even earthworms. Please explain how this works.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

foogazi 3y ago

> None of this trivializes trans people, rather it is your argument that trivializes the experience of women who were born and raised female and the distinct experiences and perspectives stemming from that. I have thought about this, and as a cis male, do I have the right to deny any other human their experience of being male ? If someone lost their male reproductive organs in an accident, from disease or at birth - should I single them out and police their gender ID ? Is someone more male than me ? Am I more male than someone else ? After this mental exercise I realized I can’t gatekeep another person’s experience. Everyone alive has paid the price of admission to exist as best they can with whatever they have.

dragonwriter 3y ago

[flagged]

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

Simulacra 3y ago

It's a statement of fact and science versus psychology.