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In full anticipation that HN will jump to the defense of the canceled speakers, here's a quote from the canceled speakers' response (emphasis mine): > UK anthr

In full anticipation that HN will jump to the defense of the canceled speakers, here's a quote from the canceled speakers' response (emphasis mine): > UK anthropologist Kathleen Richardson’s abstract highlighted issues surrounding material disparities between the sexes in the tech industry that are being erased by counting men who identify as trans as women rather than by having more women enter the field. The assumption here is that trans women are actually just "men who identify as trans." If that's the attitude that these scholars have, it's no wonder their paper was flagged as transphobic.

Ensorceled 3y ago
Yeah, this is one of those decisions where the aggrieved party's defence makes me feel it was the right decision.
bellown 3y ago
She's not wrong though, is she. Having 'male women' in the demographic doesn't make the field any less male-dominated. Unfortunately, it's common on HN for commenters here to see things primarily from a male viewpoint, and assume that female-centred perspectives are less valuable or less intelligent or even bigoted in some way. Please do keep an open mind when listening to women share their experiences and perspectives.
- jadamson 3y ago
  [flagged]
- kdmccormick 3y ago
  My view, and AFAICT the view of most academic organizations in the US at this point, is that there is no such thing as a "male woman". A trans woman is female, a trans man is male. Trying to separate gender from "biological sex" trivializes the reality of trans people. Even if you don't care about that, it's just not very correct: intersex people exist; chromosomes don't always line up with assigned-at-birth gender; and transitioning can involve physical changes that you might consider changing someone's "biological sex". For situations where one's birth-assigned gender is relevant, the terms "assigned male/female at birth" (AMAB/AFAB) can be used. The researcher's claim about tech diversity could have been framed as, e.g., "a recent uptick in tech diversity can be ascribed to counting trans women by their self-identified gender rather than the gender they were assigned at birth". That comes across as much more sensitive and academic than "men identifying as trans", which just has TERF written all over it.
  - jadamson 3y ago
    > Trying to separate gender from "biological sex" trivializes the reality of trans people. The reality of trans people is that their gender identity does not match their biological sex, either at birth or at any time thereafter. That's what being trans is. And no, you cannot change your biological sex. Gene therapy and brain transplants aren't there yet. None of this trivializes trans people, rather it is your argument that trivializes the experience of women who were born and raised female and the distinct experiences and perspectives stemming from that.
    - kdmccormick 3y ago
      Our base disagreement is whether human gender and sex are distinct things. I don't think there's anything I do to change your mind and convince you that they're not, so I recommend you do some research or talk to a trans person in your life and see if it updates your understanding of the topic.
      - jadamson 3y ago
        I know trans people, I've including a couple I worked with for years and remain in contact with. Neither would ever claim that sex and gender are the same thing, because they don't have brain rot. Gender is cultural. There are cultures with more than two genders, but they continue to have the same distribution of X and Y chromosomes because sex is biological. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender https://www.coe.int/en/web/gender-matters/sex-and-gender https://www.coe.int/en/web/gender-matters/sex-and-gender
        dragonwriter 3y ago
        Sex is biological and multidimensional; but the construct assigning a binary categorization based on some (not necessarily static over time) sex traits is, even though the category assigned is often described, even in law, as the described-person’s “sex” is, in fact, a form of socially ascribed gender.
- liamwire 3y ago
  Let’s suppose the motive of wanting more women in tech is to rally against historic prejudices and institutional biases, in order to assist an otherwise marginalised group towards a more equal footing with the traditional power brokers, men. If you can’t see how this extends to trans women, a group that is almost inarguably as oppressed as cis women, regardless of whether you view them as ‘true’ women, then I can only assume bad faith.

Ensorceled 3y ago

Yeah, this is one of those decisions where the aggrieved party's defence makes me feel it was the right decision.

bellown 3y ago

She's not wrong though, is she. Having 'male women' in the demographic doesn't make the field any less male-dominated. Unfortunately, it's common on HN for commenters here to see things primarily from a male viewpoint, and assume that female-centred perspectives are less valuable or less intelligent or even bigoted in some way. Please do keep an open mind when listening to women share their experiences and perspectives.

jadamson 3y ago
[flagged]
kdmccormick 3y ago
My view, and AFAICT the view of most academic organizations in the US at this point, is that there is no such thing as a "male woman". A trans woman is female, a trans man is male. Trying to separate gender from "biological sex" trivializes the reality of trans people. Even if you don't care about that, it's just not very correct: intersex people exist; chromosomes don't always line up with assigned-at-birth gender; and transitioning can involve physical changes that you might consider changing someone's "biological sex". For situations where one's birth-assigned gender is relevant, the terms "assigned male/female at birth" (AMAB/AFAB) can be used. The researcher's claim about tech diversity could have been framed as, e.g., "a recent uptick in tech diversity can be ascribed to counting trans women by their self-identified gender rather than the gender they were assigned at birth". That comes across as much more sensitive and academic than "men identifying as trans", which just has TERF written all over it.
- jadamson 3y ago
  > Trying to separate gender from "biological sex" trivializes the reality of trans people. The reality of trans people is that their gender identity does not match their biological sex, either at birth or at any time thereafter. That's what being trans is. And no, you cannot change your biological sex. Gene therapy and brain transplants aren't there yet. None of this trivializes trans people, rather it is your argument that trivializes the experience of women who were born and raised female and the distinct experiences and perspectives stemming from that.
  - kdmccormick 3y ago
    Our base disagreement is whether human gender and sex are distinct things. I don't think there's anything I do to change your mind and convince you that they're not, so I recommend you do some research or talk to a trans person in your life and see if it updates your understanding of the topic.
    - jadamson 3y ago
      I know trans people, I've including a couple I worked with for years and remain in contact with. Neither would ever claim that sex and gender are the same thing, because they don't have brain rot. Gender is cultural. There are cultures with more than two genders, but they continue to have the same distribution of X and Y chromosomes because sex is biological. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender https://www.coe.int/en/web/gender-matters/sex-and-gender https://www.coe.int/en/web/gender-matters/sex-and-gender
      - dragonwriter 3y ago
        Sex is biological and multidimensional; but the construct assigning a binary categorization based on some (not necessarily static over time) sex traits is, even though the category assigned is often described, even in law, as the described-person’s “sex” is, in fact, a form of socially ascribed gender.
liamwire 3y ago
Let’s suppose the motive of wanting more women in tech is to rally against historic prejudices and institutional biases, in order to assist an otherwise marginalised group towards a more equal footing with the traditional power brokers, men. If you can’t see how this extends to trans women, a group that is almost inarguably as oppressed as cis women, regardless of whether you view them as ‘true’ women, then I can only assume bad faith.