5 ms·

But typing "ö" (e.g. swiss keyboard) and pressing delete & getting an o would be annoying af

gumby 3y ago
Definitely agree with that! I use a US kbd (incl on phone) no matter what language I’m writing in. A little annoying but switching kbd layouts is more disruptive for me.
jraph 3y ago
Same for a French keyboard with éèàù which are all typed using one key. But even êôûæœäëïöü, all typed using at least two keys, if not 3 with a compose key (from memory, I'm using a phone). Everybody is used to the way it has been working on all OSes.
riggsdk 3y ago
I realize that the editor would be the system to keep track of how the character was entered for this to work. If you made the character from a single keypress it would only make sense that backspace also undid the entire character. Only if you created the character from multiple keypresses it would make sense to "undo" only part of it with backspace (at least until you move away from the character).
- hunter2_ 3y ago
  > make sense to "undo" only part of it with backspace I'm not sure that ever really makes sense: it would be a misnomer if "backspace" didn't bring you "back" some amount of horizontal "space," I reckon. This logic holds up not only for cases like ö and emoji (where I'd hope the whole grapheme disappears), but also for scenarios like if one types <f><i> and an <fi> ligature appears, where I'd hope only the <i> disappears: that's fine because you are still going back some space. If the key ever gets repurposed from "backspace" to "undo" then I would agree that it should step back to the previous state with as much granularity as possible.
  - mananaysiempre 3y ago
    “Backspace” is already a misnomer: the original intention was for it to move the caret one position back, the other way around from the usual space, thus enabling overstriking (whence also the characters _ ^ ` , unheard of before the typewriter age). You can still see this used by the troff|less internals of man, which encode underline and bold as _<BS>a and a<BS>a respectively.
- extraduder_ire 3y ago
  The text already contains the data about how the character was entered (more specifically, what codepoints it's made of), unless it has been normalized somehow. It seems like a tarpit to me to properly specify these behaviours in a way that won't be an annoyance/surprise to a lot of people.
extraduder_ire 3y ago
It would probably expose the implementation too much, but if you wanted combined characters to be split apart, I would expect "ö" to be removed in one go, whereas an "o" with a combined diaeresis (No idea if it's called that, I got the name from the code chart) would take two backspaces.
- gumby 3y ago
  The mark with two dots can refer to various things. Dieresis (Greek word we use in English) is a phenomenon where two vowels don’t merge together to make a new sound. Co-operate, coöperate, or cooperate. You could also shove a glottal stop in there but this is much less extreme. The diaresis marker isn’t used much in the USA. Another common example is naïve. Umlaut (German word) is the opposite phenomenon: the first vowel sound is inflected by the following, so in German Apfel (apple, pronounced UPfell) becomes Aepfel (apples, EPPfell), instead commonly written Äpfel instead. People usually refer to the marks by the term in their own language (umlaut, diaresis, caron, accent…). I say Umlaut in German (which doesn’t mark the phenomenon, you just have to know) and diaresis in English though I’m talking about the same symbol. But diacritics are used in no systematic way in different languages anyway (this is true of the letters themselves too: letters like S, W, V and Z have different pronunciations in English and German, for example). Ppl just needed ways to say “the sound here is similar to the sound of this letter but not really the same” or “when you say this letter also do something else” (like, say, add stress for languages that have that). English mostly dispenses with them, sometimes adding a letter (g vs gh) but mostly having a very casual relationship with the sound at all. You simply have to know that cooperate isn’t pronounced like chicken coop. I personally think that’s a good thing.
  - brewmarche 3y ago
    If you want to refer to the symbol in a neutral way there is the term trema
HelloNurse 3y ago
Pragmatically, to get from "ö" to "o" one would delete "ö" (hopefully by pressing backspace) and then type "o"; deleting the combining marks isn't actually useful.

Definitely agree with that! I use a US kbd (incl on phone) no matter what language I’m writing in. A little annoying but switching kbd layouts is more disruptive for me.

jraph 3y ago

Same for a French keyboard with éèàù which are all typed using one key. But even êôûæœäëïöü, all typed using at least two keys, if not 3 with a compose key (from memory, I'm using a phone). Everybody is used to the way it has been working on all OSes.

riggsdk 3y ago

I realize that the editor would be the system to keep track of how the character was entered for this to work. If you made the character from a single keypress it would only make sense that backspace also undid the entire character. Only if you created the character from multiple keypresses it would make sense to "undo" only part of it with backspace (at least until you move away from the character).

hunter2_ 3y ago
> make sense to "undo" only part of it with backspace I'm not sure that ever really makes sense: it would be a misnomer if "backspace" didn't bring you "back" some amount of horizontal "space," I reckon. This logic holds up not only for cases like ö and emoji (where I'd hope the whole grapheme disappears), but also for scenarios like if one types <f><i> and an <fi> ligature appears, where I'd hope only the <i> disappears: that's fine because you are still going back some space. If the key ever gets repurposed from "backspace" to "undo" then I would agree that it should step back to the previous state with as much granularity as possible.
- mananaysiempre 3y ago
  “Backspace” is already a misnomer: the original intention was for it to move the caret one position back, the other way around from the usual space, thus enabling overstriking (whence also the characters _ ^ ` , unheard of before the typewriter age). You can still see this used by the troff|less internals of man, which encode underline and bold as _<BS>a and a<BS>a respectively.
extraduder_ire 3y ago
The text already contains the data about how the character was entered (more specifically, what codepoints it's made of), unless it has been normalized somehow. It seems like a tarpit to me to properly specify these behaviours in a way that won't be an annoyance/surprise to a lot of people.

extraduder_ire 3y ago

It would probably expose the implementation too much, but if you wanted combined characters to be split apart, I would expect "ö" to be removed in one go, whereas an "o" with a combined diaeresis (No idea if it's called that, I got the name from the code chart) would take two backspaces.

gumby 3y ago
The mark with two dots can refer to various things. Dieresis (Greek word we use in English) is a phenomenon where two vowels don’t merge together to make a new sound. Co-operate, coöperate, or cooperate. You could also shove a glottal stop in there but this is much less extreme. The diaresis marker isn’t used much in the USA. Another common example is naïve. Umlaut (German word) is the opposite phenomenon: the first vowel sound is inflected by the following, so in German Apfel (apple, pronounced UPfell) becomes Aepfel (apples, EPPfell), instead commonly written Äpfel instead. People usually refer to the marks by the term in their own language (umlaut, diaresis, caron, accent…). I say Umlaut in German (which doesn’t mark the phenomenon, you just have to know) and diaresis in English though I’m talking about the same symbol. But diacritics are used in no systematic way in different languages anyway (this is true of the letters themselves too: letters like S, W, V and Z have different pronunciations in English and German, for example). Ppl just needed ways to say “the sound here is similar to the sound of this letter but not really the same” or “when you say this letter also do something else” (like, say, add stress for languages that have that). English mostly dispenses with them, sometimes adding a letter (g vs gh) but mostly having a very casual relationship with the sound at all. You simply have to know that cooperate isn’t pronounced like chicken coop. I personally think that’s a good thing.
- brewmarche 3y ago
  If you want to refer to the symbol in a neutral way there is the term trema

HelloNurse 3y ago

Pragmatically, to get from "ö" to "o" one would delete "ö" (hopefully by pressing backspace) and then type "o"; deleting the combining marks isn't actually useful.